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Old 17-05-2018, 20:18   #61
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Rod, I guess you missed my posting that shows that you made a number of false assumptions about your "proof". And that your proof is not a proof at all.

I've requoted it below for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
Those diagrams are specific to Control and Power Connections for Across-the-Line Starters, 600 V or less based NEMA standard ICS 2-321A.60.

A quick search shows that ICS 2-321A.60 specifies that markers on Full-Voltage Single-Speed Magnetic Controllers will label their connectors thus:


7.2.1 Terminal Markings for Full-Voltage Single-Speed Magnetic Controllers
All controllers shall be marked and wired in accordance with Table 2-7-1, where applicable.

The sequence of line and load terminal markings shall be L1, L2, L3, L4 and T1, T2, T3, T4, reading from left
to right when looking at the front of the controller. If the leads come in to the left or right of the controller, then
the sequence of lead numbering shall be the same as if the controller were rotated to these positions


They are only indicating the names on the terminals on these motor controllers. This naming scheme is of very limited scope. And really does not apply to recreational boats.

Notice that there is a L4.

It appears to me that someone saw this specific case and incorrectly assumed that it has applications outside of the scope of NEMA standard ICS 2-321A.60.

These motor starting devices are quite specialized and can be wired up in many different ways. There is no implication that L2 and neutral are the same in the spec.

It is clear that the book was not read and understood, the spec was not read and understood. And that the very dangerous implications of treating L2 as neutral have been lost.
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Old 17-05-2018, 20:29   #62
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
I see that you are unable to admit that you are wrong.
Nope, I did admit I was wrong earlier in this thread when you declared you were leaving, and I thought it was DOT.

But then you didn't really leave.

You then posted a lengthy discertation covering much of the material already posted as some kind of new revelation that was riddled with errors.

You did admit to some of the ones I pointed out. Good on you.

Quote:
It saddens me that you are willing to endanger others by continuing to state that L2 is an acceptable name for neutral.
First, I would never endanger others.

I always advise those who don't know what they are doing not to mess with their electrical systems.

If one doesn't understand that the ungrounded and grounded terminals of a 120Vac single phase electrical system may be referred to as L1 and L2, and how to deal with that, they shouldn't be messing around.

Quote:
Very sad....
Would it make you happy to refer to them as "Fred" and "Ginger"?

I'm OK with that too, and so is ABYC, as long as it is clear which is the grounded and ungrounded terminals of the 120 Vac single phase system.

Quote:
For the record folks...L2 to neutral is 120 volts.
L2 to neutral is 120 volts only in a 240 Vac split phase system.

In a 120 Vac system, the grounded leg may be depicted as L2, as I have clearly shown.

Quote:
L1 to L2 is 240 volts. Do not connect L2 to neutral.
Absolutely correct for a 240 Vac split phase system. No argument here, never has been.

But for a 120Vac single phase system, that depicts the ungrounded conductor as L1, and the grounded conductor as L2, L2 IS NEUTRAL.
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Old 17-05-2018, 20:38   #63
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
Rod, I guess you missed my posting that shows that you made a number of false assumptions about your "proof". And that your proof is not a proof at all.

I've requoted it below for you.
Nope, didn't miss it.

My other posts have covered it quite well, thank you.
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Old 17-05-2018, 20:46   #64
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
SNIP

But for a 120Vac single phase system, that depicts the ungrounded conductor as L1, and the grounded conductor as L2, L2 IS NEUTRAL.
Actually, you have hot shown anywhere in your "proofs" that L2 is neutral.

You keep asserting that this is so. You wave a pdf at us that you do not understand as proof but it is not. Saying that you have provven it over and over is not proof.

As ABYC certified You of all people should know that L2 is not neutral.

Oh and by the way, is that a 120 vac single phase 2 wire system or a 120 vac 3 wire system? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old 17-05-2018, 20:58   #65
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
Actually, you have hot shown anywhere in your "proofs" that L2 is neutral.
Please quit posting this drivel and go back and read post 60.
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Old 17-05-2018, 21:02   #66
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Please quit posting this drivel and go back and read post 60.
Again you cannot cite a proof. You only deflect. Try to use logic and reason. Your supposed proofs have been discredited. You have no other support for your position so you go back in a circle.

As for putting people at risk - You say If you do not know what you are doing then get a marine electrician as if that absolves you of misleading folks when you say that L2 is neutral.
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Old 17-05-2018, 21:27   #67
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
Again you cannot cite a proof.
I sited 2 references in post 33 that illustrate that alternate nomenclature is valid, as long as it is clear how it is to be connected.

In post 60, I clearly demonstrated how you were mistaken, with your claim that my supporting evidence was invalid.

Nothing has changed.

Please stop posting until you read, stop, and think about that.

Quote:
As for putting people at risk - You say If you do not know what you are doing then get a marine electrician as if that absolves you of misleading folks when you say that L2 is neutral.
I have not mislead anyone.

I have not put anyone at risk.

I did not say "L2 is neutral" in all cases.

In post 19, that set you and DOT off on some ridiculous tirade, I stated...

"A ground fault device monitors current through L1 (black, line, or hot) and compares it to the current through L2 (white, neutral)."

I clearly indicated what I was referring to as "L2".

Anyone who finds this confusing or misleading, should not be working on marine (or any) electrical system.

I could have just as easily stated "monitors current through the brass screw terminal, one may call "FRED", and compares it to the current through the silver screw terminal, one may call "GINGER".

This would have also been 100% correct and valid.

As long as they are clearly identified by some means, one can call them whatever they wish.

If you don't like it, sorry, but tuff, that is the way it is, and trying to pee further won't change it.
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Old 17-05-2018, 21:38   #68
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Oi vey...

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Old 17-05-2018, 22:34   #69
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
In post 19, that set you and DOT off on some ridiculous tirade, I stated...

"A ground fault device monitors current through L1 (black, line, or hot) and compares it to the current through L2 (white, neutral)."

I clearly indicated what I was referring to as "L2".
There you have it. Your use of L2 in the place of neutral was challenged. You objected to being called out on your misunderstanding or imprecise use of terminology that presents a hazard to typical boaters.

You continue to defend your misuse knowing full well that in the most common usage on our boats that L1 is hot and L2 is hot.

You endanger anyone anyone who reads your posts and concludes that L2 is neutral (and is grounded). Again knowing full well that 50 amp boat service is split phase, L1 hot, L2 hot, neutral, grounding conductors.

Logic and reason appears to not be able to change your stance.
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Old 17-05-2018, 23:13   #70
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

I'd rather go sailing, how about you guys? Take a break
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Old 17-05-2018, 23:31   #71
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
There you have it. Your use of L2 in the place of neutral was challenged.
Actually, my use of "L1 (black, line, or hot)" and "L2 (white, neutral)" with respect to 120 Vac GFCI connections, were challenged.

If I had used "L1 (black, line, or hot) and "L2 (red, hot)", the challenge would have been valid.

I didn't.

It wasn't.

All the rest was superfluous rhetoric.
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Old 17-05-2018, 23:50   #72
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Actually, my use of "L1 (black, line, or hot)" and "L2 (white, neutral)" with respect to 120 Vac GFCI connections, were challenged.

If I had used "L1 (black, line, or hot) and "L2 (red, hot)", the challenge would have been valid.

I didn't.

It wasn't.

All the rest was superfluous rhetoric.
Yawn. Same old same old.

You were called out (and you made a big deal of it) because you conflated L2 with neutral. Here is what you said by your own admission a few posts back:

Quote:
"A ground fault device monitors current through L1 (black, line, or hot) and compares it to the current through L2 (white, neutral)."
You know well that the source of power to a GFCI is the power distribution panel. And you have not shown any GFCI documentation where any of the line input terminals were marked L2.

You know darn well that this panel is on a boat.

You know darn well that most boats (here on CF) have a single 30 amp feed to the panel which only has ungrounded, grounded and grounding (L1, N,G) conductors.

You know darn well that boats with a 50 amp feed have L1, L2, N and G.

You know darn well that L2 in the 50 amp panel is at 120 vac to N and 240 vac to L1.

You know darn well that in any boat typical to a CF member that a conductor marked L2 on the line side is not grounded.

So

Why not admit that at a minimum your conflating L2 with neutral is misleading and has the potential to cause grave harm to someone or their boat.

I'll make it easy for you, just say:

There are various motor starters, motors and other loads that use L1, L2 etc to indicate their line inputs. However when speaking of line sources L2 typically refers to a hot power source conductor that is at lethal voltages and should never be connected to the neutral conductor.
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Old 18-05-2018, 03:13   #73
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
For the reference I provided many posts ago,

Table 4 on Page 4, the title is...

"Control and Power Connections for Across-the-Line Starters, 600 V or less"

RR Tutorial: 120 V is less than 600 V.

First row, first data column, "1 phase"

RR Tutorial: Not 3 phase, not split phase, but 1 phase.

Bonus points for knowing this is referring to AC.

Second row, "Line Markings", "L1, L2".

RR Tutorial: Not "Line, Neutral" but "L1, L2".

Third Row, "Ground When Used", "L1 is always ungrounded"

RR Tutorial: If there is L1 and L2 and when ground is used, L1 is ungrounded, then what does that make L2?

So then there are well over 30 diagrams illustrating different wiring arrangements, where "L1" and "L2" can depict the ungrounded and grounded connections for 120 Vac single phase electrical systems.
Ah, now it’s making sense where your confusion is.

240VAC is single phase!
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Old 18-05-2018, 05:19   #74
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
For the reference I provided many posts ago,

Table 4 on Page 4, the title is...

"Control and Power Connections for Across-the-Line Starters, 600 V or less"

RR Tutorial: 120 V is less than 600 V.

First row, first data column, "1 phase"

RR Tutorial: Not 3 phase, not split phase, but 1 phase.

Bonus points for knowing this is referring to AC.

Second row, "Line Markings", "L1, L2".

RR Tutorial: Not "Line, Neutral" but "L1, L2".

Third Row, "Ground When Used", "L1 is always ungrounded"

RR Tutorial: If there is L1 and L2 and when ground is used, L1 is ungrounded, then what does that make L2?

So then there are well over 30 diagrams illustrating different wiring arrangements, where "L1" and "L2" can depict the ungrounded and grounded connections for 120 Vac single phase electrical systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Ah, now itís making sense where your confusion is.

240VAC is single phase!
Rod, go back and re-read your schneider doc and think 240VAC when it mentions single phase, the doc will make a lot more sense.

Again, that doc only mentions 120VAC in two places, and that's in regard to secondary control circuits.
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Old 18-05-2018, 06:34   #75
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

To anyone following this thread...

When connecting a 120 Vac GFCI to a 120 Vac electrical system, of the 2 "LINE" voltage conductors, to be connected to the 2 "LINE" terminals on the GFCI, connect:

The black (ungrounded) conductor to the "hot" terminal (which you may refer to as "L1").

The white (grounded) conductor to the "white" terminal (which you may refer to as "L2").

The green (grounding) conductor to the "green" terminal (which you may refer to as "G").

This is the correct and safe way to connect it.

Two things you should not do, that has now been suggested several times by others...

A) Do not connect a 240 Vac electrical supply to a 120 Vac GFCI

B) Do not connect a red (ungrounded) conductor to a white (grounded) conductor of a 240 Vac supply.
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