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Old 17-05-2018, 14:39   #46
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Really Rod, I do not understand why you are defending the use of L2 as a name for the grounded (neutral) conductor.

There is a very real hazard that someone with a 50 amp shore power system will take your assertion and wire L2 to neutral with dire results.

Or they might wire L1 to the hot side of a GFCI and L2 to the neutral side of a GFCI and blow the GFCI up (or worse put 240 v into the "protected" outlet).

A simple look at a Blue Seas 50 amp panel wil clearly indicate that L2 is at line potential.

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/reso...tions/6637.pdf

It is a dis-service to the CF community here IMHO to keep asserting that L2 and neutral are the same.
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Old 17-05-2018, 16:19   #47
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
OK, so you do not have an ABYC specification that indicated that L2 is a grounded conductor. Fair enough.

Please then furnish a specific citation where L2 is the grounded conductor (neutral conductor for the rest of us.

And really let's not play the switch game. We are not talking about internal wiring of specific industrial devices but about the AC line power sources. To refresh you memory you said:



So clearly you were talking about the AC current source from the distribution panel. And that L2 is an acceptable name for the neutral lead.
Asked and answered.

I have already provided evidence that the ungrounded conductor may be referred to as other names than just “line” including “hot” and “L1”, and that the grounded conductor may be referred to as other names than just “neutral” including “white” and L2.

As I see it, you can take one of the following positions:

A) I know it all, and there is nothing new for me to learn.

B) Huh, I didn’t know that, I learned something new today.

BTW, those are not any kind of obscure “internal” wiring diagrams, they are very common ladder diagrams, commonly used in the electrical industry, as created by one of the largest electrical industry manufacturers in the world.

If you are not familiar with them and this nomenclature, it may just be that you still have something to learn.
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Old 17-05-2018, 16:22   #48
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Asked and answered.

I have already provided evidence that the ungrounded conductor may be referred to as other names than just “line” including “hot” and “L1”, and that the grounded conductor may be referred to as other names than just “neutral” including “white” and L2.



BTW, those were not any kind of “internal” wiring diagram, they are very standard control system ladder diagrams. You may not be familiar last with them.

As I see it, you can take one of the following positions:

A) I know it all, and there is nothing new for me to learn.

B) Huh, I didn’t know that, I learned something new today.

BTW, those are not any kind of obscure “internal” wiring diagrams, they are very common ladder diagrams, commonly used in the electrical industry, as created by one of the largest electrical industry manufacturers in the world.
No you have not. Just more evasion on your part.

And oh by the way we are talking about Boats....
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Old 17-05-2018, 16:24   #49
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Asked and answered.

As I see it, you can take one of the following positions:

A) I know it all, and there is nothing new for me to learn.

B) Huh, I didn’t know that, I learned something new today.
This is really good advice - I suggest that you take it. Which stance to you hold?
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Old 17-05-2018, 16:45   #50
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
This is really good advice - I suggest that you take it. Which stance to you hold?
I enjoy the fact I still have lots to learn.

I am pretty knowledgeable about electrical systems, but I am sure there are others that know more about it than me.

For example, since you have declared my reference to L1 and L2 is incorrect, despite my showing proper examples of their use, how about you show me a marine electrical standard that declares the ungrounded conductor must be referred to as “line” and nothing else, and the grounded conductor must be referred to as “neutral” and nothing else.

I bet you have a little trouble with this.

Especially since we have already covered that other nomenclature is valid. Maybe the light will come on when we talk about various languages other than English, or those pesky electrical devices that just have coloured screws and no conductor labelling at all. ;-)

Again, a �� by any other name, is still a ��. ;-)
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Old 17-05-2018, 17:05   #51
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
For example, since you have declared my reference to L1 and L2 is incorrect, despite my showing proper examples of their use, how about you show me a marine electrical standard that declares the ungrounded conductor must be referred to as “line” and nothing else, and the grounded conductor must be referred to as “neutral” and nothing else.
Rod, you claim to have answered the question back in post 33 where you waived your hand at a pdf of Schnider's Wiring Diagram Book (copyright 1993 BTW). This reference you claim backs up your assertion that L2 is another way of referring to neutral.

I really do not think that pointing at a book and not giving a specific reference page,diagram number cuts it.

So please inform us of which page and figure backs up your claim that L2 is another way of referring to neutral. Here is your link:

https://download.schneider-electric....Ref=0140CT9201
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Old 17-05-2018, 17:13   #52
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
I enjoy the fact I still have lots to learn.

I am pretty knowledgeable about electrical systems, but I am sure there are others that know more about it than me.

For example, since you have declared my reference to L1 and L2 is incorrect, despite my showing proper examples of their use, how about you show me a marine electrical standard that declares the ungrounded conductor must be referred to as “line” and nothing else, and the grounded conductor must be referred to as “neutral” and nothing else.

I bet you have a little trouble with this.

Especially since we have already covered that other nomenclature is valid. Maybe the light will come on when we talk about various languages other than English, or those pesky electrical devices that just have coloured screws and no conductor labelling at all. ;-)

Again, a �� by any other name, is still a ��. ;-)
Rod,

The problem is that nothing you've provided shows the grounded conductor labeled as 'L2'. In post 33, your reference to the GFCI recep that labels the grounded conductor as 'white'. The second reference is for a bunch of motors/controllers, which labeling in a motor does not have to follow, nor does it dictate wiring standards. Beside the fact that in all 109 pages of that document, it only mentions 120VAC in 2 places, and that's on secondary controls circuits with no mention of 'L2'.

I give you credit for trying to impress people with all that gobbledygook, but it didn't work!
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Old 17-05-2018, 18:01   #53
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
Rod, you claim to have answered the question back in post 33 where you waived your hand at a pdf of Schnider's Wiring Diagram Book (copyright 1993 BTW). This reference you claim backs up your assertion that L2 is another way of referring to neutral.

I really do not think that pointing at a book and not giving a specific reference page,diagram number cuts it.

So please inform us of which page and figure backs up your claim that L2 is another way of referring to neutral. Here is your link:

https://download.schneider-electric....Ref=0140CT9201
Again, asked and answered.

I already did.

It starts on Page 4.

It is covered in table 4 and every single 120 Vac wiring diagram in that book.

BTW, I am real busy and it is not my responsibility to educate you and everyone here, so please, when I post a reference to support my position that you are refuting and contradicting, PLEASE READ IT, before you carry on so.
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Old 17-05-2018, 18:30   #54
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Rod,

The problem is that nothing you've provided shows the grounded conductor labeled as 'L2'. In post 33, your reference to the GFCI recep that labels the grounded conductor as 'white'. The second reference is for a bunch of motors/controllers, which labeling in a motor does not have to follow, nor does it dictate wiring standards. Beside the fact that in all 109 pages of that document, it only mentions 120VAC in 2 places, and that's on secondary controls circuits with no mention of 'L2'.

I give you credit for trying to impress people with all that gobbledygook, but it didn't work!
Look, I realize that you are prepared to argue ad infinitum, ad

I’m not.

Show me any law, that prohibits one from referring to the ungrounded conductor as “Fred”, and the grounded conductor as “Ginger”.

You can’t.

It doesn’t exist.

Even these are valid nomenclature if one so decides, so the “L1, L2, G” nomenclature that is commonly used in 120 Vac single phase wiring diagrams is most certainly “correct” and “valid”.
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Old 17-05-2018, 18:57   #55
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post

Even these are valid nomenclature if one so decides, so the “L1, L2, G” nomenclature that is commonly used in 120 Vac single phase wiring diagrams is most certainly “correct” and “valid”.
Please show a common example from a recognized source.
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Old 17-05-2018, 19:03   #56
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Look, I realize that you are prepared to argue ad infinitum, ad

I’m not.

Show me any law, that prohibits one from referring to the ungrounded conductor as “Fred”, and the grounded conductor as “Ginger”.

You can’t.

It doesn’t exist.

Even these are valid nomenclature if one so decides, so the “L1, L2, G” nomenclature that is commonly used in 120 Vac single phase wiring diagrams is most certainly “correct” and “valid”.
Again....neither chart calls the grounded conductor 'L2'.
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Old 17-05-2018, 19:12   #57
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Again, asked and answered.

I already did.

It starts on Page 4.

It is covered in table 4 and every single 120 Vac wiring diagram in that book.

BTW, I am real busy and it is not my responsibility to educate you and everyone here, so please, when I post a reference to support my position that you are refuting and contradicting, PLEASE READ IT, before you carry on so.
Rod,

There are no 120VAC wiring diagrams in the book that show the grounded conductor as 'L2'.

Did you read the book????

Here is table 4, where does is state "120 Vac wiring" ????
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Old 17-05-2018, 19:13   #58
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Look, I realize that you are prepared to argue ad infinitum, ad

I’m not.

Show me any law, that prohibits one from referring to the ungrounded conductor as “Fred”, and the grounded conductor as “Ginger”.

You can’t.

It doesn’t exist.

Even these are valid nomenclature if one so decides, so the “L1, L2, G” nomenclature that is commonly used in 120 Vac single phase wiring diagrams is most certainly “correct” and “valid”.

I see that you are unable to admit that you are wrong.

It saddens me that you are willing to endanger others by continuing to state that L2 is an acceptable name for neutral.

Very sad....

For the record folks L1 is the first hot leg, L2 is the second hot leg (and L3 the third hot leg in a 3 phase system). L1 to neutral is 120 volts (in a 120 volt single or split phase system), L2 to neutral is 120 volts. L1 to L2 is 240 volts. Do not connect L2 to neutral.
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Old 17-05-2018, 20:24   #59
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Rod,

There are no 120VAC wiring diagrams in the book that show the grounded conductor as 'L2'.

Did you read the book????

Here is table 4, where does is state "120 Vac wiring" ????

Those diagrams are specific to Control and Power Connections for Across-the-Line Starters, 600 V or less based NEMA standard ICS 2-321A.60.

A quick search shows that ICS 2-321A.60 specifies that markers on Full-Voltage Single-Speed Magnetic Controllers will label their connectors thus:


7.2.1 Terminal Markings for Full-Voltage Single-Speed Magnetic Controllers
All controllers shall be marked and wired in accordance with Table 2-7-1, where applicable.

The sequence of line and load terminal markings shall be L1, L2, L3, L4 and T1, T2, T3, T4, reading from left
to right when looking at the front of the controller. If the leads come in to the left or right of the controller, then
the sequence of lead numbering shall be the same as if the controller were rotated to these positions


They are only indicating the names on the terminals on these motor controllers. This naming scheme is of very limited scope. And really does not apply to recreational boats.

Notice that there is a L4.

It appears to me that someone saw this specific case and incorrectly assumed that it has applications outside of the scope of NEMA standard ICS 2-321A.60.

These motor starting devices are quite specialized and can be wired up in many different ways. There is no implication that L2 and neutral are the same in the spec.

It is clear that the book was not read and understood, the spec was not read and understood. And that the very dangerous implications of treating L2 as neutral have been lost.
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Old 17-05-2018, 21:09   #60
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Re: Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Rod,

There are no 120VAC wiring diagrams in the book that show the grounded conductor as 'L2'.

Here is table 4, where does is state "120 Vac wiring" ????
For the reference I provided many posts ago,

Table 4 on Page 4, the title is...

"Control and Power Connections for Across-the-Line Starters, 600 V or less"

RR Tutorial: 120 V is less than 600 V.

First row, first data column, "1 phase"

RR Tutorial: Not 3 phase, not split phase, but 1 phase.

Bonus points for knowing this is referring to AC.

Second row, "Line Markings", "L1, L2".

RR Tutorial: Not "Line, Neutral" but "L1, L2".

Third Row, "Ground When Used", "L1 is always ungrounded"

RR Tutorial: If there is L1 and L2 and when ground is used, L1 is ungrounded, then what does that make L2?

So then there are well over 30 diagrams illustrating different wiring arrangements, where "L1" and "L2" can depict the ungrounded and grounded connections for 120 Vac single phase electrical systems.
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