Do I need a new solar controller?

[Moontide]

I have had a Morningstar MPPT Tri Star 60 controller for maybe 5 years now. Very happy with it. One question I haven't seem is whether or not you have shading issues on the panels. If so, that will also kill the output.


Since your panels are 37 volts you definetily need an MPPT controller. In simple terms, you are thowing away the excess energy created between 13 and 37 volts (more or less). The MPPT controller will utilized this energy and give you much higher charge rate.



Don't worry about having panels rated for more power than your controller (within reason). I am running 980 watts of 36 volt panels through a 60 amp controller. The 980 watts could produce more than 60 amps (980/14=70 amps) but as a practical matter this doesn't happen often - maybe for an hour during good charging days. Already had the controller before I added the last 260 watts and didn't want to spend the extra $. Morningstar has a good article on have excess panels which gives a good analysis why this is OK.


Bottom line is yes, get a MPPT controller. Victron has the Blueooh connection and phone app which is nice. My older Morningstar has an ethernet connection which runs to a router and I use MSView (Morningstar free download) to track what is going on.


Both companies have what seems to be a good reputation. From what I've seen, the Morningstar units are much smaller if space is a consideration.


Bill

[Kalimniosjohn]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

A thought I've often pondered with regard to a wind generator shading solar panels is "is it worth it?" A wind generator output curve is horrible -- at wind speeds below 20 knts, they really go south. Practical Sailor did a test a few years back (here, not behind a paywall https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...rs_5467-1.html) where Day 3 was winds around 10 knots, and the best units put out less than 10Ah -- or about 1 hour of solar on a 100W panel.


The question becomes, is a wind generator that can on a good day put out 10A Ah or more (winds sustained over 15 knots), worth the risk of shadowing 200W of solar panels (which routinely can put out 50Ah almost every day if they aren't shaded).



If I had both installed, I think I would pay very close attention to the trade-offs. And if I didn't have a wind generator, I'd be very skeptical about the benefit of installing one.

I was originally planning to add two new solar panels around 150-175 watts each, and a second new 100/30 solar controller to the system. This was because about 400 watts was around the recommended output for the 100/30 controller I got.

However now that I’ve done some research it seems it isn’t the best idea to mix different brand solar panels on one controller unless they are exactly the same voltage and amp output otherwise you won’t be getting the most from the setup. So since the current panels seem to be working wonderfully with the new controller I’m going to leave that be and get two 300-330 watt panels and a 100/50 victron smart controller. With this setup I will have about 1100 watts total. I think at that point I will no longer need the wind genny. It definitely does help on those cloudy days currently, but I think it won’t be needed with over one KW of PV.

[Kalimniosjohn]

Originally Posted by carlwk3c

Make sure you match panels by output voltage. Don’t mix and match (parallel) panels of different voltages.
I have 2 LG 350W in parallel to a Victron SmartSolar 150/85. I would not add different panels in parallel.

I did read a nice article about just this a few days ago. Definitely changed my plans.

[Kalimniosjohn]

Originally Posted by GILow

I might have missed it, but has anyone recommended a battery monitor yet?

An extremely useful device, I would almost say essential. The Solar Controllers are good, the OP has bought one of the best, but a monitor is still going to tell a lot more than the controllers.

After a while I stopped looking at my controllers, all I look at now is the monitor.

As stated previously I hadn’t really looked into all this solar and battery stuff until it became necessary. Now that I have dug in though, I have found that I do indeed have a shunt, an amp meter and a xantrex link lite battery monitor. Though for the life of me I can’t figure out what it’s telling me or how to make any adjustments. Still more research to do. Though the more it frustrates me the more I’m leaning towards tearing it out and putting in a new Balmar SG200

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Kalimniosjohn

As stated previously I hadn’t really looked into all this solar and battery stuff until it became necessary. Now that I have dug in though, I have found that I do indeed have a shunt, an amp meter and a xantrex link lite battery monitor. Though for the life of me I can’t figure out what it’s telling me or how to make any adjustments. Still more research to do. Though the more it frustrates me the more I’m leaning towards tearing it out and putting in a new Balmar SG200

The Balmar SG200 has its fans (including MainSail), and it may do exactly what it says on the box and do it better than anything like a Victron or Xantrex, but to me it has a fatal flaw. If you get a SG200, keep the Xantrex.


The SG200 has ZERO information about current. It can't tell you how much your fridge is drawing, your alternator is charging, or anything else. It may tell you that you are at 90% SOC, but it won't tell if you are charging or discharging, or how fast. That, to me, is critical information that most modern production boats don't have -- and so I wouldn't ever take out the Xantrex even if you install a SG200 for SOC data. Use it as a very precise ammeter, if nothing else!

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Kalimniosjohn

As stated previously I hadn’t really looked into all this solar and battery stuff until it became necessary. Now that I have dug in though, I have found that I do indeed have a shunt, an amp meter and a xantrex link lite battery monitor. Though for the life of me I can’t figure out what it’s telling me or how to make any adjustments. Still more research to do. Though the more it frustrates me the more I’m leaning towards tearing it out and putting in a new Balmar SG200

This is good news. I wouldn’t rush pulling the Xantrex yet, maybe get some opinions on it first. I’ve read plenty of complaints/problems here on CF with just about every make and model of monitor so you may end up no better off.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

The Balmar SG200 has its fans (including MainSail), and it may do exactly what it says on the box and do it better than anything like a Victron or Xantrex, but to me it has a fatal flaw. If you get a SG200, keep the Xantrex.


The SG200 has ZERO information about current. It can't tell you how much your fridge is drawing, your alternator is charging, or anything else. It may tell you that you are at 90% SOC, but it won't tell if you are charging or discharging, or how fast. That, to me, is critical information that most modern production boats don't have -- and so I wouldn't ever take out the Xantrex even if you install a SG200 for SOC data. Use it as a very precise ammeter, if nothing else!

You wrote this just as I was writing.

I had read of problems with some of this stuff, but the shortfalls you list sound extraordinary. I am kind of scratching my head now and wondering what the SG200 actually DOES do?

Edit: just checked the Balmar site and it claims to indicate current flow.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Kalimniosjohn

......................I do indeed have a shunt, an amp meter and a xantrex link lite battery monitor. Though for the life of me I can’t figure out what it’s telling me or how to make any adjustments. Still more research to do. ...........................

This might help: The first one has a long discussion about your Link Lite



For everyone installing a battery monitor: The "Gotcha Algorithm" thread, a "MUST READ"

Link-series Charging Algorithms -- The "Gotcha" Factor!

DEFAULTS are factory settings that are made to be modified to suit your setup.

Also read this one:

Programming a Battery Monitor (by Maine Sail)

https://marinehowto.com/programming-a-battery-monitor/

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by GILow

You wrote this just as I was writing.

I had read of problems with some of this stuff, but the shortfalls you list sound extraordinary. I am kind of scratching my head now and wondering what the SG200 actually DOES do?

Edit: just checked the Balmar site and it claims to indicate current flow.

Ooops. Serves me right! All my comments were about the Balmar SmartGauge -- the old model. The SmartGauge (new and old) uses "magic sauce" to calculate the SoC, and apparently their "magic sauce" is good stuff. But the SmartGauge (old model) has no shunt and no ammeter.


THE SG200 DOES AMPS! All caps to make it clear. It has a shunt and provides accurate amp readout. This fixes what I considered the SmartGauge's fatal flaw.


Live and learn. Thanks!


Harry

[Wolfgang.Schau]

I disagree what some others say about PWM controllers. They certainly support 30V panels to charge a 12V system. To make PWM controllers work, the panel voltage MUST be significantly higher than the battery voltage. Yes, a MPPT controller finds the better Power Point (MPPT = Maximum Power Point) to squeeze somewhat like 20% more out of your panels. If you have 480 W panels, the max you can get from them is about 400 W if they point dead south with no obstruction with a 28 degree inclination at Peanut Island (Your latitude). The 480W is a theoretical value under lab conditions. Aside from that, you have to be aware of the following: If just a small portion of one panel is in the shadow, the entire panel is lost. If you have a little bit of shadow on both panels, you will not get much at all. Each panel has a diode to avoid the entire chain goes down is one panel is shaded, but if one of the squares in each panel has shade on it, both are useless. That is why I have mounted my panels at the stern on top of the davids, away from the sail and other shadow causing stuff.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Wolfgang.Schau

I disagree what some others say about PWM controllers. They certainly support 30V panels to charge a 12V system. To make PWM controllers work, the panel voltage MUST be significantly higher than the battery voltage. Yes, a MPPT controller finds the better Power Point (MPPT = Maximum Power Point) to squeeze somewhat like 20% more out of your panels. If you have 480 W panels, the max you can get from them is about 400 W if they point dead south with no obstruction with a 28 degree inclination at Peanut Island (Your latitude). The 480W is a theoretical value under lab conditions. Aside from that, you have to be aware of the following: If just a small portion of one panel is in the shadow, the entire panel is lost. If you have a little bit of shadow on both panels, you will not get much at all. Each panel has a diode to avoid the entire chain goes down is one panel is shaded, but if one of the squares in each panel has shade on it, both are useless. That is why I have mounted my panels at the stern on top of the davids, away from the sail and other shadow causing stuff.

that is categorically incorrect

From
https://amsolar.com/diy-rv-solar-ins...rgecontrollers

The PWM type charge controllers are the simplest and usually the lowest priced. PWM controllers operate by regulating a pulsed, direct connection from the solar array to the battery bank. As the battery bank approaches a full charge, the length of the connection pulses decreases to gradually taper off the charging current from the solar array. On a 12V battery bank, PWM charge controllers can only be used with a solar array that has an open circuit voltage of 24.0V or less.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

All my comments were about the Balmar SmartGauge -- the old model.
…
THE SG200 DOES AMPS!

SG200 is not a "new model" or version of SmartGauge. The SmartGauge is a product of Merlin in the UK Balmar just labels, markets and supports it (very well) in the Americas.

SG200 is developed by Balmar in house and is a completely different brand new product, apart from some underlying technology in common, but independently developed and in both cases kept proprietary.

SmartGauge has no shunt, its very accurate methodology of measuring SoC does not involve measuring current at all.

SG200 combines results of similar methods with coulomb-counting as well.

Its firmware currently does not display totalized current numbers of Ah as do other coulometers, but that may change in the future.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by newhaul

that is categorically incorrect

+1

In theory a PWM SC could include voltage conversion, but I know of no such unit.

Power carried at voltages much higher than the charge required by the bank is discarded, completely wasted.

PWM SCs are best served by panels with the VoC just high enough but otherwise as low as possible.

High voltage panels are best served by MPPT controllers.

[captainwd40]

My quick answer to your question is YES, you need a solar panel controller very much like you need a battery charger to charge your batteries. The battery charger controls the current to batteries to make sure it isn't too high when batteries are very low (too much current will burn the internal plates reducing battery life) and current is low when the batteries get fully charged so you don't overcharge the batteries ….. again reducing battery life. The solar controller will limit (control) the output of the solar panels so that a constant current is applied to the batteries during charging. It sound like your solar panels maybe entering thermal runaway due to no controller. When the batteries are low, the drain (current draw) on the solar panels is higher than they can provide so they try but can't provide the asking current by the batteries causing them to get too hot (thermal runaway) then shutdown to save themselves and cool off, once cool enough they then try to provide over-current again, get too hot and shutdown, cool off, and try again. This is a vicious cycle and will eventually destroy your solar panels. Also …… the temperature reading you are seeing is the solar panel internal temperature which is indicating to me the thermal runaway condition.


I agree with the above comments to fully charge your batteries with a generator or shore power then turn everything off and let your batteries rest for 15-30 minutes to "settle down inside." Then connect your solar panels with the solar panel controller (new if don't have one) and you see a big improvement and what appears to endless power as long as the output of your solar panels (480 watts) exceed your overall demand. The batteries will deplete somewhat during the night but fully recharge in about 5-6 hours the next day granted the solar panels get full sun all day.

Solar power is great! Used correctly ……… It is the only way to go!!

Hope this helps …….. Cheers!

[Kalimniosjohn]

At this point I’m fairly certain that my xantrex battery monitor is also in need of replacement. I read the very detailed thread someone linked too about these monitors and their “gotcha” issues and how to adjust to solve the issue. I made the adjustments, and still I don’t get what it’s telling me. When I went to bed last night it was telling me my batteries were at 99.9% at 12.7v. Okay I doubt it I thought but I’ll see what it says in the morning. Well this morning first thing it says 100% full at 12.3v. It was a windless night so I know there was no charging going on. What would cause this?