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Old 04-10-2014, 06:01   #46
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

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Originally Posted by Emmalina View Post
Why don't you drop a coil in your HW tank and use the genset cooling water to heat it ?
There already is a coil in it that uses engine coolant water to heat the tank. I've never heard of switching to using the genset cooling water but I bet it would work just fine. In my case, it would cost more to re-plumb both sets of cooling lines than it would to merely replace my dual element with a 1500 watt element and a dump load. But I think your suggestion is a very viable idea.
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Old 04-10-2014, 09:46   #47
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

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The fact that you say you think your clients are too stupid to make rational decisions about how to avoid overcharging their batteries says more about you than your clients.... Most cruisers I know are all about keeping things as simple and as inexpensive as possible, so I'm surprised to hear your rather cynical sounding perspective.
I think you may have misread what I wrote, which is why the Rule No 1 in the PR/Company Relations Books these days says Never, Ever, Never participate in a public chat forum because you risk pissing more people off and being taken out of context than to be gained by staying quite. I've been told that time and time again and still chose to ignore that advice because the real life cruiser in me wants to help, frankly more than I care about selling things. It's just the advantage I have of being "retired" and doing what I love, compared to doing what I have to do to make money. So give me a quick opportunity to straighten out the misreading of what I said.

I never said clients were "too stupid to make rational decisions"...those were your words not mine. Stating that clients simply don't have good sources of information and too easily fall prey to marketing hype over what they really need isn't being cynical, it's just being honest, which is rare these days. Sure I sell cruising gear, but what I really do for a living is educate cruisers and dispel cruising myths; it's a huge part of my 7 days a week phone and email customer service time. If you knew how many of my technical service calls started out "a buddy of mine told me...." Or "I read it online...." when they had completely bogus information maybe you would understand my perspective a bit better and realize I'm not calling my clients stupid I'm trying to help educate them by speaking frankly without the marketing hype. What other motivation could I have for telling them to NOT buy something I sell as an option? To be insulting or an ass? No, not today, but I will admit I certainly need to keep my sarcasm and keep my smart ass attitude more in check . Some people get me….others hate my approach. But as Popeye says…”I yam what I yam”.

It took me a few years of transitioning form a DIY technical cruiser type to selling cruising gear before I realized that not all cruisers approached things like me, or just as importantly like all of us here on CF. We ask questions, research buying decisions, and want to actually KNOW the internal workings of the gear they are putting on their boat. We here on CF and other cruising sites are like the folks that write letters to the editor or call into a talk radio station, we are the small percentage of the overall cruising/boating population. But since we live in this world, it seems natural and normal to us to assume that others do as well, but experience in selling gear to cruisers shows me this isn't the case. What is more typical, is someone making a gear purchase from the glossy advertisement, sales/marketing hype or because the smart guy on the dock told them what was the best system. This isn't a knock on my clients, heck Madison Avenue spends Billions a year on marketing and advertising why else would people pay $1.95 for bottled water when in most cases the water from their tap is just as good or better for FREE. Marketing works and it takes education to deprogram it.

Education, or what I call deprogramming, takes time and the need for an actual technical person that knows what they are talking about to do it. And let’s be even more brutally honest since I’ve already dug my hole to China this morning, most people in the cruising industry today selling gear have never cruised, never been on a cruising boat away from the dock for months at a time, and have never actually used the gear they are selling out in the real world. To them it’s just a sell and commission like a Ted Bundy pair of dress shoes or a Sham wow super shamy (which I have and love by the way…ha ha ha). I’m criticizing the Cruising Gear Industry…not the clients, or at least that is my intent anyway, but as my wife tells me all the time: “How could you have such a good point to make but then get it so screwed up when it comes out of you mouth?”

This Saturday morning rant of a Marine Cruising Gear Salesman (hey that sounds like a cool Book title) is brought to you by the letter M: for Marketing, Masochism, Marauder, and Moby Dick.

(come on guys...tell me someone got the "Moby Dick" pun/joke...or did I just crack myself up again and the people laughing in the room are not laughing with me....but at me)
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Old 04-10-2014, 10:33   #48
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
The fact that you say you think your clients are too stupid to make rational decisions about how to avoid overcharging their batteries says more about you than your clients..... Most cruisers I know are all about keeping things as simple and as inexpensive as possible, so I'm surprised to hear your rather cynical sounding perspective.

Then there's people like me who don't fall into either one of your neat categories. I'm interested in a dump load because I already have the controller (it came with the boat) so it's easier and less expensive to just get one rather than rewiring the KISS to short itself out when the batteries are 100% full and the wind blows hard (does that really ever happen?).

I use mine much the same way you do, on the rare occasion when my batteries are full, or if I'm planning to be away from the boat for several days, I merely shut off the switch and that's that. But I'd like to be able to leave it on when I leave for 3 or 4 days because I also like to leave my refrig and freezer on with food in it, or I might forget to turn off the switch before leaving the boat someday and spending $50 to $100 to make my KISS into a set and forget system seems like money well spent.

KISS sells a dump load for about $100 but I can't seem to find a photo of what I'd be buying and I'm not even 100% sure it's still available. Can anyone recommend an appropriately sized and caged in dump load that has worked well for them? I currently have mine wired to the DC element in my dual element water heater so it should be a very simple matter to replace the dual element with a standard 1500 watt AC element and then just switch the KISS DC wires to an appropriate dump load. Any particular diversion load anyone recommends?

I have used the KISS for 15 years, I can tell you; when it blows hard and steady, the Kiss has thermal couples that will prevent charging until the WG cools down. when the thermal couples open, the blades will freewheel and go so damn fast it is scary. need to tied them off. I have a marker on the pole to tell me where not to reach. It will take off a hand easily. When I leave the boat for a long time I do turn off the switch that shorts the alternator. I see no sense in having a controller for the WG
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Old 04-10-2014, 12:44   #49
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

Jim-
"but why do some windgens "REQUIRE" a dump load? "
A true generator, as opposed to an alternator, delivers more power as it runs faster. There is no internal regulation on a generator, the only control is speed=equals=power. Applies to wind generators, motorcycle generators, any kind of generators.
And if you short out the output? You fry the coils and start a fire while it slags down.

That's how generators work.

Now, there are a lot of "wind generators" with integral regulators, brakes, what have you. In the same way that the modern alternator in a car is NOT AN ALTERNATOR at all. Never. In a 1968 Ford, it was an alternator and there was an external regulator. Alternators can take feedback from a regulator, to limit their maximum output power pretty much regardless of speed. Today's cars all have alternators with integral regulators, but we still call them alternators out of habit or ignorance or convenience.

Ditto for a windgen. At least one brand, I forget which, is using a feedback loop, which probably makes it an alternator in disguise. The two words are so poorly defined that even Delco (GM) has flipflopped over the years on what to call them, and for a while they would only call their products "Delcotrons" not alternators or generators.

The EE's among us will have their own definitions and no confusion about which is which, but that doesn't help outside of that crowd, as among sailors.(G)

Wind generator? Oh, sure, a machine that generates wind. Don't we call that a fan?
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Old 04-10-2014, 13:13   #50
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

Jtsailjt.

Are you sure you need a dump load?
Are you sure your wind generator is producing lots of excess power?

My take is that if you have a medium sized bank of 750AH and a daily energy budget to match, it's unlikely you will ever need a dump load.
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Old 05-10-2014, 14:57   #51
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

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Originally Posted by sailr69 View Post
I have used the KISS for 15 years, I can tell you; when it blows hard and steady, the Kiss has thermal couples that will prevent charging until the WG cools down. when the thermal couples open, the blades will freewheel and go so damn fast it is scary. need to tied them off. I have a marker on the pole to tell me where not to reach. It will take off a hand easily. When I leave the boat for a long time I do turn off the switch that shorts the alternator. I see no sense in having a controller for the WG

Yes at about 26 knots the thermal couples will let the prop freewheel and the charging stops. To still get charging when it honks over 25 or so I used to tie the windgen slightly off the wind. This way it still charged without overheating and freewheeling.
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:09   #52
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

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Originally Posted by neelie View Post
Jtsailjt.

Are you sure you need a dump load?
Are you sure your wind generator is producing lots of excess power?

My take is that if you have a medium sized bank of 750AH and a daily energy budget to match, it's unlikely you will ever need a dump load.
You make a very valid point that in the real world, with a large battery bank that is rarely completely full for any length of time which coincidentally coincides with the wind blowing faster than about 10 knots for a length of time, a dump load will be rarely, if ever, needed. Just like about 90% of those on this forum, when I'm aboard the boat I can't help but keep a close eye on the state of charge of my house bank, and can use the on/off switch to ensure overcharging by my wind gen never happens.

But, unfortunately, I still have to work a few more years so my boat sometimes sits on its mooring for 4 days to a week without me being aboard and we like to leave the refrig and freezer turned on so when we come back to the boat we can just show up and take up where we left off. I also have solar panels that contribute to keeping the batteries up but it's nice to be able to leave the windgen on to help out too. So, with the refrig (which is already cold and not being opened) not needing much to maintain it, if we had a particularly sunny/windy week, I'd just sleep better knowing that no damage was being done to that expensive and physically hard to place battery bank.

I think your "take" is absolutely correct and if I were setting up the system from scratch, I'd not bother with a controller, and would wire it as Jim Cates suggests, but since it's already set up that way, at this point I think it's easier and less expensive to just replace my dump load and leave everything else as is.

For a dump load, I want one of appropriate wattage (300ish, I think) for the KISS that is constructed so that it would be difficult for anything flammable to come in contact with the hot part of it. Does anyone have any good suggestions?
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:17   #53
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
I think you may have misread what I wrote, which is why the Rule No 1 in the PR/Company Relations Books these days says Never, Ever, Never participate in a public chat forum because you risk pissing more people off and being taken out of context than to be gained by staying quite. I've been told that time and time again and still chose to ignore that advice because the real life cruiser in me wants to help, frankly more than I care about selling things. It's just the advantage I have of being "retired" and doing what I love, compared to doing what I have to do to make money. So give me a quick opportunity to straighten out the misreading of what I said.

I never said clients were "too stupid to make rational decisions"...those were your words not mine. Stating that clients simply don't have good sources of information and too easily fall prey to marketing hype over what they really need isn't being cynical, it's just being honest, which is rare these days. Sure I sell cruising gear, but what I really do for a living is educate cruisers and dispel cruising myths; it's a huge part of my 7 days a week phone and email customer service time. If you knew how many of my technical service calls started out "a buddy of mine told me...." Or "I read it online...." when they had completely bogus information maybe you would understand my perspective a bit better and realize I'm not calling my clients stupid I'm trying to help educate them by speaking frankly without the marketing hype. What other motivation could I have for telling them to NOT buy something I sell as an option? To be insulting or an ass? No, not today, but I will admit I certainly need to keep my sarcasm and keep my smart ass attitude more in check . Some people get me….others hate my approach. But as Popeye says…”I yam what I yam”.

It took me a few years of transitioning form a DIY technical cruiser type to selling cruising gear before I realized that not all cruisers approached things like me, or just as importantly like all of us here on CF. We ask questions, research buying decisions, and want to actually KNOW the internal workings of the gear they are putting on their boat. We here on CF and other cruising sites are like the folks that write letters to the editor or call into a talk radio station, we are the small percentage of the overall cruising/boating population. But since we live in this world, it seems natural and normal to us to assume that others do as well, but experience in selling gear to cruisers shows me this isn't the case. What is more typical, is someone making a gear purchase from the glossy advertisement, sales/marketing hype or because the smart guy on the dock told them what was the best system. This isn't a knock on my clients, heck Madison Avenue spends Billions a year on marketing and advertising why else would people pay $1.95 for bottled water when in most cases the water from their tap is just as good or better for FREE. Marketing works and it takes education to deprogram it.

Education, or what I call deprogramming, takes time and the need for an actual technical person that knows what they are talking about to do it. And let’s be even more brutally honest since I’ve already dug my hole to China this morning, most people in the cruising industry today selling gear have never cruised, never been on a cruising boat away from the dock for months at a time, and have never actually used the gear they are selling out in the real world. To them it’s just a sell and commission like a Ted Bundy pair of dress shoes or a Sham wow super shamy (which I have and love by the way…ha ha ha). I’m criticizing the Cruising Gear Industry…not the clients, or at least that is my intent anyway, but as my wife tells me all the time: “How could you have such a good point to make but then get it so screwed up when it comes out of you mouth?”

This Saturday morning rant of a Marine Cruising Gear Salesman (hey that sounds like a cool Book title) is brought to you by the letter M: for Marketing, Masochism, Marauder, and Moby Dick.

(come on guys...tell me someone got the "Moby Dick" pun/joke...or did I just crack myself up again and the people laughing in the room are not laughing with me....but at me)
Well now that you've clarified what you meant, please accept my apologies for misunderstanding the tone of your post regarding clients. I do agree with you about marketing hype and how difficult it is to separate the wheat from the chaff without having to become an expert on every single item on your boat, so it's a good thing that there are those in sales such as yourself who are predisposed to guide customers to the right solution rather than just to the most profitable solution.
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:31   #54
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

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Originally Posted by jtsailjt View Post
I want one of appropriate wattage (300ish, I think) for the KISS that is constructed so that it would be difficult for anything flammable to come in contact with the hot part of it. Does anyone have any good suggestions?
John over at SV Hotwire sells those for $95.
I know he is traveling today to the Annapolis Show and I don't have one here in San Diego at the moment, but I do have one in my Boat Show Display Box in Annapolis. So if someone doesn't show a photo of one for you by the time I unpack my boxes on Wednesday I will snap a photo of it and post it here for you. SVHotwire's dump load is comprised of 4-ceramic 100W elements mounted on a phenolic board.
Hotwire's doesn't come with a cage around it like this one: Diversion Load - 600W (used in D400 package) for $231 but Hotwire's it is also $136 less.....



Now as to why John over at SVhotwire doesn't have a photos and specs for his diversion load up on his website? Well that is a weakness in his online technical literature for sure, and to be frank it's a problem not just for the diversion load but for the KISS wind generator in general (lack of detailed technical specs in the manual or website) When I asked John about getting a photo of the diversion load, he pointed out to me that the Photo in Nigel Calders's Boat Owners Manual of the diversion load being hooked up were showing his unit with HIS hands and that Nigel accidentally gave someone else the credit. Ok, well that is nice, but most of the new cruisers today have never heard of Nigel Calder or his Boat Owners Manual Bible, so how does that help someone today about making a purchase or hooking things up...well it doesn't.

Updating the technical literature on the KISS and the ancillary products is one of the Big Goals we set out when we purchased the KISS wind generator earlier this year. There are also some major build and design improvements that are in the testing phase at the moment, which should build on the strength of the KISS but also take away the irritations, like the thermal cut-out in winds of above 25 or so kts. That problem is all about heat dissipation due to the fiberglass body...change that to an aluminum body and it goes away...hint hint hint...
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:44   #55
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
John over at SV Hotwire sells those for $95.
I know he is traveling today to the Annapolis Show and I don't have one here in San Diego at the moment, but I do have one in my Boat Show Display Box in Annapolis. So if someone doesn't show a photo of one for you by the time I unpack my boxes on Wednesday I will snap a photo of it and post it here for you. SVHotwire's dump load is comprised of 4-ceramic 100W elements mounted on a phenolic board.
Hotwire's doesn't come with a cage around it like this one: Diversion Load - 600W (used in D400 package) for $231 but Hotwire's it is also $136 less.....



Now as to why John over at SVhotwire doesn't have a photos and specs for his diversion load up on his website? Well that is a weakness in his online technical literature for sure, and to be frank it's a problem not just for the diversion load but for the KISS wind generator in general (lack of detailed technical specs in the manual or website) When I asked John about getting a photo of the diversion load, he pointed out to me that the Photo in Nigel Calders's Boat Owners Manual of the diversion load being hooked up were showing his unit with HIS hands and that Nigel accidentally gave someone else the credit. Ok, well that is nice, but most of the new cruisers today have never heard of Nigel Calder or his Boat Owners Manual Bible, so how does that help someone today about making a purchase or hooking things up...well it doesn't.

Updating the technical literature on the KISS and the ancillary products is one of the Big Goals we set out when we purchased the KISS wind generator earlier this year. There are also some major build and design improvements that are in the testing phase at the moment, which should build on the strength of the KISS but also take away the irritations, like the thermal cut-out in winds of above 25 or so kts. That problem is all about heat dissipation due to the fiberglass body...change that to an aluminum body and it goes away...hint hint hint...
That's funny because I have a well used copy of the Bible according to Nigel but it's aboard my boat and I'm not, at least not until next Monday.

I'd appreciate the pix if you can get to it, but it seems like a good idea to have some sort of cage around it "just in case." Or is there no need for that in a 300 or 400 watt load? If I'm going to have to build my own protective cage anyway, why not just pay $16 for the 12 volt version of this 300 Watt Divert Load Resistor one at Missouri Wind and Solar? Is there something I'm not aware of about the $100 KISS load that makes it better?
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:17   #56
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

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That's funny because I have a well used copy of the Bible according to Nigel but it's aboard my boat and I'm not, at least not until next Monday.

I'd appreciate the pix if you can get to it, but it seems like a good idea to have some sort of cage around it "just in case." Or is there no need for that in a 300 or 400 watt load? If I'm going to have to build my own protective cage anyway, why not just pay $16 for the 12 volt version of this 300 Watt Divert Load Resistor one at Missouri Wind and Solar? Is there something I'm not aware of about the $100 KISS load that makes it better?
Pretty similar, but the reason SV Hotwire is using 4-100w resisters is that the 4 will be much cooler to the touch than a single 300w resister. It would spread the heat over the 4 rather than 1. So add up the 4 resisters and then the mounting on the board and there you have the $95 vs 4 resisters form Missouri at $16ea (or $64) so you are paying John $31 to mount them including the board over what you could buy 4 of them for from Missouri Wind and Solar and source the phenolic board and do it all yourself.
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Old 06-10-2014, 12:30   #57
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Re: Diversion Load for Wind Generator

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Pretty similar, but the reason SV Hotwire is using 4-100w resisters is that the 4 will be much cooler to the touch than a single 300w resister. It would spread the heat over the 4 rather than 1. So add up the 4 resisters and then the mounting on the board and there you have the $95 vs 4 resisters form Missouri at $16ea (or $64) so you are paying John $31 to mount them including the board over what you could buy 4 of them for from Missouri Wind and Solar and source the phenolic board and do it all yourself.
That's what I was wondering about and the reason I was hoping to get a look at the KISS load for, to see how big they are, thinking that if the total physical size was larger, that would indicate a lower max temp and the same amount of heat/energy released but at a lower temp is worth paying a little more for IMHO.
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