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Old 02-02-2016, 16:47   #1
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Curious about Lithum batteries

Like most people my experience with lithium batteries is in phones, cameras and computers where they work very well. The drawback is a relatively short life (2-4yrs). Do the big ones use a different technology? Is it just a scale factor? Or do they also have a relatively short life?
Not thinking of this as an option at present so not read up on it but does anyone have a short simple answer! And please I am not looking to start another long debate on the 'best' battery type!!!!
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Old 02-02-2016, 17:23   #2
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

Not correct for the lithium chemistry intended for marine applications.

The lithium batteries suitable for marine application are lithium iron phosphate chemistry (LiPeFO4) and offer much better performance than AGM chemistry. However, the LiFePO4 advantage is expensive.

Here are a couple of good information references Panbo: The Marine Electronics Hub: The DIY lithium battery bank; Bob Ebaugh has 330 cycles so far and Lithium Battery Systems | GenasunGenasun

Best way to go if you will keep your system for the LiFePO4 anticipated cycle battery life and can afford the front end cost.
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Old 02-02-2016, 18:23   #3
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

At Dusseldorf boat show Mastervolt was there with the lithium line and I took the opportunity to understand them better. The number of cycles they can stand are 2000. That seems a lot more than a normal battery, about 3 times more.

Their real advantages are that while a "normal" battery has only half of its capacity as useful energy the Lithium one has 70% of his capacity as useful energy, they can be charged a lot faster and for the same volume they can store more energy.

I have AGM Mastervolt batteries on my boat and I hope they will last some more years but with Lithium batteries on the space I have 350AH for the house I can have 720Ah and those 720Ah correspond to 860Ah due to the bigger discharge they can sustain without damage.

All very interesting except the price. Those two batteries cost almost as much as a small car
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Old 03-02-2016, 00:05   #4
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

Hopefully all those people who bought solar panels for their houses will start buying Lithium batteries and the bigger demand will stimulate price reductions as it appears to have done with solar panels.

I am also hoping that when the lead acid battery banks I now have spread all over the boat pass their use by date I can replace the eight cells I now have with just a couple of Lithiums for about the same cost into just one battery box, here's hoping.
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Old 03-02-2016, 08:43   #5
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

The way I understand standard lithium battery (cell phone, computer, etc.) life depends on not letting them sit at less that 40% charge for more than 2 hours. If you do they build up copper shorts, this is what causes the fires, these shorts heat up and starts the fire. If they aren't bad enough to cause a fire I'm sure they destroy battery life. By no way am I an expert, but I have enough of these batteries and did enough research online to learn this.
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:14   #6
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

...LiFePO4 batteries used for marine applications is NOT the same chemistry used in cell phones and notebooks which is usually lithium-ion. Two totally different animals and cannot be compare.
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Old 03-02-2016, 09:54   #7
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

Whatever you do, do not try to over charge the battery by constantly repluging in the charger. L batteries have chips that manage the battery. That chip can get disabled if you over charge. Then you got a dead battery forever. Just let it charge and leave it. The chip technology will manage the charge rates and the tappering. A lot of folks keep replugging in their chargers when the battery is already charged up. That forces extra charging beyond what the chip can function with. Kill the chip, kill the battery.
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Old 03-02-2016, 10:46   #8
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

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Originally Posted by ntimbuktu View Post
...LiFePO4 batteries used for marine applications is NOT the same chemistry used in cell phones and notebooks which is usually lithium-ion. Two totally different animals and cannot be compare.
The other brads I don't know but Mastervolt uses lithium-ion for marine proposes.
Mastervolt - Innovative power systems<br>for autonomous use
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Old 03-02-2016, 10:52   #9
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntimbuktu View Post
Not correct for the lithium chemistry intended for marine applications.

The lithium batteries suitable for marine application are lithium iron phosphate chemistry (LiPeFO4) and offer much better performance than AGM chemistry. However, the LiFePO4 advantage is expensive.

Here are a couple of good information references Panbo: The Marine Electronics Hub: The DIY lithium battery bank; Bob Ebaugh has 330 cycles so far and Lithium Battery Systems | GenasunGenasun

Best way to go if you will keep your system for the LiFePO4 anticipated cycle battery life and can afford the front end cost.
Thanks for that, pretty much answers all the questions but the cost... New they where expensive but that's more than my entire electrical system!
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:00   #10
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The other brads I don't know but Mastervolt uses lithium-ion for marine proposes.
Mastervolt - Innovative power systems<br>for autonomous use
From your link:

MLI Ultra 12/2500



Specifications


General specifications Nominal battery voltage 13,2 V Nominal battery capacity 180 Ah Nominal battery energy capacity 2500 Wh Max. charge current 500 A (2,8 C) Max. continuous discharge current 500 A (2,8 C) Peak discharge current 1800 A (10 C) for 10s Cycle life ~2000 at 80 % DoD Battery monitoring integrated MasterBus communication yes Battery terminals M8 Mounting position upright or either long side Max. outer dimensions (incl. terminals/grip handles), lxwxh 341 x 197 x 355 mm
13.4 x 7.8 x 14.0 inch Weight 31 kg
68.3 lb Technical specifications Battery chemistry Lithium Iron Phosphate
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:05   #11
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The number of cycles they can stand are 2000. That seems a lot more than a normal battery, about 3 times more.

Their real advantages are that while a "normal" battery has only half of its capacity as useful energy the Lithium one has 70% of his capacity as useful energy, they can be charged a lot faster and for the same volume they can store more energy.
Sorry to say but the industry should know it better.
Charging is about 14,3V
almost all electric units need at least 11V to work as they should.
So it is bloody useless to be able to discharge down to 2V
The range ist from 13,8V (full) to about 11,3V empty
To supply 120Ah you need 3x 225Ah max capacity AND it simple does not matter who provides it.

AND I have never heard about charging cycles of AGM's. The only problem is heavy discharging and charging as this uses a lot of lead but look at car batteries with 75Ah. Starting needs about 900W , the Max. That really hurts the AGM's and then the alternator charges it up too quick so the batteries life is about 5-7 years. On a boat you usually discharge slowly and charge slowly - I hope -. So I know of AGM's that are 15 years old ald still in service. With a good dis- charging layout.
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:29   #12
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
From your link:

MLI Ultra 12/2500



Specifications


General specifications Nominal battery voltage 13,2 V Nominal battery capacity 180 Ah Nominal battery energy capacity 2500 Wh Max. charge current 500 A (2,8 C) Max. continuous discharge current 500 A (2,8 C) Peak discharge current 1800 A (10 C) for 10s Cycle life ~2000 at 80 % DoD Battery monitoring integrated MasterBus communication yes Battery terminals M8 Mounting position upright or either long side Max. outer dimensions (incl. terminals/grip handles), lxwxh 341 x 197 x 355 mm
13.4 x 7.8 x 14.0 inch Weight 31 kg
68.3 lb Technical specifications Battery chemistry Lithium Iron Phosphate
I don't understand what you are trying to say. A Lithium Iron phosphate is a Lithium Ion battery. The word Ion refers to the " lithium ions (that) move from the negative electrode to the positive electrode during discharge and back when charging."

Lithium Ion batteries can have different chemistry. This are the more used:"Handheld electronics mostly use LIBs based on lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2), which offers high energy density, but presents safety risks, especially when damaged. Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4), lithium manganese oxide (LMnO or LMO) and lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (LiNiMnCoO2 or NMC) offer lower energy density, but longer lives and inherent safety. Such batteries are widely used for electric tools, medical equipment and other roles. NMC in particular is a leading contender for automotive applications. Lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide (LiNiCoAlO2 or NCA) and lithium titanate (Li4Ti5O12 or LTO) are specialty designs aimed at particular niche roles. The new lithium sulphur batteries promise the highest performance to weight ratio."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:32   #13
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

Quite a bit of misunderstanding above. In no particular order:

1. Mastervolt Lithium batteries are radically overpriced. I paid under $11,000 for 120 CALB CAM72 cells with 27KWh. These are high-end, very light cells.

2. LiFePO4 (excellent for boats) and LiCoO2 (dangerous fire hazard and complex to charge) are both Lithium-ion, so the term Lithium-ion does not specify the battery type.

3. Leaving LiFePO4 cells at a state of charge below 20% for long periods will reduce the lifespan of the cells from several thousand cycles to just a few thousand cycles, where lifespan is defined as capacity reduced to 80% of spec. Contrast that to lead-acid where lifespan is a few hundred cycles (I've never seen 500 from any variant of lead-acid, gel, AGM, etc.) and which are just about completely unusable when they reach that.

4. The LiFePO4 cells that most of us buy do not have any kind of chip inside. Many people are buying BMSes that are meant for high C charging and discharging (up to 10C and higher) and which are, in my opinion, a complete waste of money for low C charging and discharging such as we use on boats (typically under 0.5C and often under 0.2C). In the vastly more stressful (for batteries) world of electric cars, people have driven dozens of thousands of miles using LiFePO4 with no BMS and zero measurable drift in cell voltages. Don't overcharge or over-discharge and LiFePO4 cells don't diverge. In my opinion, a BMS on a marine house bank is snake oil.

5. I don't ever plan to discharge below 20% SoC (state of charge) but I know that I can safely discharge to 1% if necessary, at the expense of a very small reduction in lifespan. It's only that last 1% where the voltage starts dropping fast that significantly reduces lifespan. Don't discharge below 2.8V or 2.9V per cell.

6. Charging. Except for initially balancing the cells, which is critically important, never charge at voltages above 3.45V per cell (13.8V for a nominal 12V system). I never charge above 3.40V per cell (13.6V for a nominal 12V system). Charging a nominal 12V LiFePO4 battery at 14.3V will reduce its lifespan for no real benefit. 13.6V will charge the batteries to about 99% as full as 14.3V and 13.8V will charge them to about 99.9% of what 14.3V will. Why cut the lifespan of batteries in half for a few extra watt-seconds? With an alternator or genset, I would be tempted to use 3.45V per cell to slightly reduce charging time and diesel consumption, but I would never go over 3.40V per cell with solar, wind, or a shore charger. 3.40V is gentle enough that it can remain connected after the cells are fully charged.

7. Initial Balancing. Use 3.65V (with the cells connected in parallel) for initial balancing. Hold the voltage there for about two hours, then disconnect the charger and leave them connected in parallel for a few weeks before connecting them in series for use.
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:46   #14
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by moseriw View Post
Sorry to say but the industry should know it better.
Charging is about 14,3V
almost all electric units need at least 11V to work as they should.
So it is bloody useless to be able to discharge down to 2V
The range ist from 13,8V (full) to about 11,3V empty
To supply 120Ah you need 3x 225Ah max capacity AND it simple does not matter who provides it.

AND I have never heard about charging cycles of AGM's. The only problem is heavy discharging and charging as this uses a lot of lead but look at car batteries with 75Ah. Starting needs about 900W , the Max. That really hurts the AGM's and then the alternator charges it up too quick so the batteries life is about 5-7 years. On a boat you usually discharge slowly and charge slowly - I hope -. So I know of AGM's that are 15 years old ald still in service. With a good dis- charging layout.
I don't understand what have the AGM charging cycles to do with the Lithium Ion charging cycles or who talked about discharging the battery to 2V??? A Lithium Ion battery at 70% (meaning with 70% of the charge gone) will provide way more than 11,3V. A AGM battery at 50% provides way more than 11.3V.

What Matervolt says about the advantages of Lithium Ion batteries coincides with what other sources say about it:

"Lithium Ion is the battery technology of today. Do you want to be the fastest or best performing? Do you want to save energy or burn less fuel? Do you want your investment to last longest? Do you want to be ‘out there’ longest without getting anxious about your energy? Then Lithium Ion is your choice of batteries. A few of its outstanding features:
  • Space and weight savings up to 70 %.
  • Three times the lifespan of traditional batteries (2000 cycles).
  • Extremely fast charging and discharging.
  • High efficiency: not wasting energy.
  • Safe operation.
Safest Lithium Ion technology available

The term Lithium Ion encompasses multiple chemistries, having slightly different compositions of materials. These differences result in variations of energy and power density, lifespan, cost and safety. As safety is our primary concern, Mastervolt chooses to use only the safest available Lithium Ion chemistry, Lithium-iron phosphate (LiFePO4).
"Mastervolt brings Lithium Ion technology in two product ranges

MLI Ultra series; Large capacity series, fully equipped for extreme cycling, like running airconditioning, pumps or electric motors for long periods of time with short intermittent charging.
MLS series; Small capacity series, entry model for smaller applications, such as portable/mobile equipment or backup power."
Mastervolt - Innovative power systems<br>for autonomous use
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Old 03-02-2016, 13:09   #15
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Re: Curious about Lithum batteries

so much misinformation it hurts...
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