cruzpro alternator reg problem

southernman · 19-02-2006, 00:57

Hi there wondering if anyone could help me with a wiring problem when I installed a new alternator recently. It worked fine on my older alternator but installing onto the new one and it doesn't work! I've enclosed the wiring diagram for people to look at but the field connections on the alternator have 2 options - either positive or negative field wires are present on the alternator. Any idea which one should be connected?

I rung Cruzpro but could not help. Boat sparky on holiday.

Got to go - 2 pack paint fumes making me see funny....

http://www.sailblogs.com/gallery/romper

NoTies · 19-02-2006, 01:14

Hi Southernman,
These sort of problems tend to be hard to diagnose safely without the benefit of seeing the system. One problem I have repeatedly had when changing from one system to another is the charge waring lamp set-up. On a Bosch (I think) system the resistance of the lamp is a critical component of the system and too high or low resistance will affect charging. My best thought would be to get the experts in, I would hesitate to give any advice that could lead to a melt down and a competent 12V electrician if you know one is going to be a lot faster and likely cheaper at sorting this out.
Pete

southernman · 19-02-2006, 01:50

totally agree - just like to be informed prior to getting my pants ripped off by the experts!! The old sparky's can be rather expensive!

Now Pete got to ask what do you do down at the Pole? I took a trip down there a few years back on the NIWA vessel Tangaroa, went to Possesion Island, Pelorus, Cape Hallett etc. Very beautiful part of the world!! Got some great pics - if anyone is interested I'll post some of the nicer ones - great ones of the sea conditions!
Southernman

NoTies · 19-02-2006, 02:19

I'm at McMurdo working in logisitics with the NY Air National Guard, who fly from here to the pole. My main job down here in the past was services engineer and occasional power plant mechanic. Followed in the footsteps of my old man who was down here in '57-58 with the US programme.
I used to work on Kaharoa when she was run by MAF instead of NIWA. Did you have a female 1st mate on Tangaroa? Can't remember her name but sailed with her a bit in the past. She was a lot of fun to go on the turps with at the end of a cruise.
I can't recommend any good sparkies in Welly, only know ones around the Sounds.

GordMay · 19-02-2006, 06:00

According to their literature, “... Most (not all) CruzPro SARs, including the SAR20(*2), require that you have a P type(*1) alternator with an external regulator. If you have an N type alternator, or an alternator with a built-in voltage regulator it may need to be modified by a competent electrical installer(*3) to be compatible with a SAR ...”

(*1) Types ‘N’ and ‘P’ differentiate between where the regulation occurs in the Alternator circuitry.
An N-Type alternator has a set of diodes, called the diode trio, which supply the positive DC potential required for the rotating field current. The actual regulator switches the negative to achieve the proper field strength to create the desired correct alternator output. The brushes are not grounded.
A P-Type alternator is one which one end of the coil which supplies the rotating magnetic field is connected to the negative and the regulator controls the positive side of the coil to regulate the alternator output. One side of the brush will be grounded.
ie: Yanmar alternators (AKA Hitachi alternators) are N type and are internally regulated. Many after market regulators are P type. For a N type alternator to work it must be modified.

*2 From CruzPro: http://www.cruzpro.com/sreg.html
specifically: http://www.cruzpro.com/sar20.html
SAR20: “Drive Capability: P type alternators up to 160 amps (8 amp maximum field winding current).”
“AC-20 (Manual Alternator Controller/Alarm) handles P and N type alternators to 160 amps... “

*3 Usually an Alternator Shop is the best choice for converting from N-Type to P-Type, though a talented amateur can DIY. I always gave this job to my Alternator Shop (about $75 with a 'tune-up'), and don’t recommend this as a DIY project.
FWIW:
To convert to “P-Type”, disconnect both brushes, reconnect 1 brush to ground, connect a new wire to the other brush, and lead the new wire outside the alternator case. Label new wire “Field Type-P”, or simply “F”.

Converting “N“ Field Alternator to “P“ Field External Regulation”
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/760/docserve.asp

HTH,
Gord

southernman · 19-02-2006, 14:45

thank you Gord - you are the first person who has explained this to me in English. I have been around tons of people even ringing Cruzpro so now I understand that is really good. What is your consultation fee?

southernman · 19-02-2006, 20:01

Pete, can't remember a lady like that there but I do remember a few goodies down on the ice. By the way is your yacht in Waikawa? I think I saw it while out walking the other weekend. Do you know Material Girl - ganley steel yacht (was in waikawa)? I helped build her in auckland. She used to be on your pier (that is if that was your whiting I saw)

NoTies · 19-02-2006, 23:38

Hi there,
Yep, she's in Waikawa berth 4 E 14. It's the first time I've ever had anything to do with this marina and don't really know any of the other boats there. A helicopter pilot from down here (Rob McPhail) used to have a Ganley on that pier so it may have been his. Small world, another guy down here with the NZ programme helped build Nightcap when he worked for Whitings in the late 70s. What's you opinion of the Ganleys?

Alan Wheeler · 20-02-2006, 00:19

Hey Southernman, what you doin over here without giving me a yell.
Hey you didn't happen to see that humungouse American yacht in the bay did you?
Looks like you me and Pete will have to do a survey on the possible damage caused by cold liquids in glass bottles and the results of emptying said cold liquid.

southernman · 20-02-2006, 00:55

yeah i was in Nelson on Friday morning and saw it out in the bay - bloody huge - thought it was a America's Cup yacht first off. hmmm must find out where you are moored Mr. Wheels. It's a shame but I finish my job in 2 weeks time to prepare the yacht for our April 29th departure from Opua Bay of Islands. Thats how I get to swan around the country looking at boats - on the company!! I will be doing a single hand trip down to the sounds in early april to test the systems prior to going up the Coast to Opua so maybe a bit of a meeting for some blue and gold sessions.

southernman · 20-02-2006, 01:24

Pete on the Ganley front I love em but then I am partial to Steel Boats. The best cruising yacht I've ever sailed on was a modified Ganley Pacemaker - real good.

www.fairmetalboats.com/ganley.htm

If I could find an unfinished Pacemaker 60 hull I'd buy it and finish it. Instead I'll be building a cat me thinks.

Wheels & Pete = posted some pics of my yacht on my gallery and also of the First 44.7 that I race on - photos from Well to Nelson race.

NoTies · 20-02-2006, 01:34

I was instinctively drawn to the Ganleys when we were hunting but unfortunately they were mostly out of our budget although was sorely tempted to borrow and grab one beauty I looked at. I too like steel for the primary reason that I understand it and can fix it.
Sounds (pun intended) that there is a raft up in the offing. I see you are a water treatment engineer. Prepare to have you brain picked in a big way, my obsession is long term exposure to low alkanity, demineralised water. Used to deal with (Tim?) from Ace when I was tied up with the NZ programme.
Thanks for the link.

southernman · 20-02-2006, 01:44

bloody nora - it is a small world - know Tim Donaldson reasonable well. Yep been in W/T for a few years now. Do a lot of work on the boats - ie. Sealords, Talleys/Amaltal, Russions etc etc.

Do a lot of closed loop, fuel oil treatment, Evaporators , Boilers etc..

NoTies · 20-02-2006, 02:06

We may well have crossed paths then, I was a Sealord engineer for a while. Look forward to hooking up with you, will make plans closer to the time.

Pete

BC Mike · 20-02-2006, 19:59

If all you guys get together over a few suds yuse may all end up cheering for Wellington. Anyone see any of the roundy world boats go by ? We sail in two weeks and it is too cold. My power boat goes in late next week and I will be out checking my marks and it will be too cold, and my new small boat will miss a few of the first races because it is too cold. Did I mention the lack of heat around here.
Michael

19-02-2006, 00:57	#1
southernman Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Boat: 44 foot bruce farr fractional rig Posts: 163	cruzpro alternator reg problem Hi there wondering if anyone could help me with a wiring problem when I installed a new alternator recently. It worked fine on my older alternator but installing onto the new one and it doesn't work! I've enclosed the wiring diagram for people to look at but the field connections on the alternator have 2 options - either positive or negative field wires are present on the alternator. Any idea which one should be connected? I rung Cruzpro but could not help. Boat sparky on holiday. Got to go - 2 pack paint fumes making me see funny.... http://www.sailblogs.com/gallery/romper

19-02-2006, 01:14	#2
NoTies Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vuda Point, Fiji Islands Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap" Posts: 651	Hi Southernman, These sort of problems tend to be hard to diagnose safely without the benefit of seeing the system. One problem I have repeatedly had when changing from one system to another is the charge waring lamp set-up. On a Bosch (I think) system the resistance of the lamp is a critical component of the system and too high or low resistance will affect charging. My best thought would be to get the experts in, I would hesitate to give any advice that could lead to a melt down and a competent 12V electrician if you know one is going to be a lot faster and likely cheaper at sorting this out. Pete __________________ Pete Positively, socially deviant.

19-02-2006, 02:19	#4
NoTies Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vuda Point, Fiji Islands Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap" Posts: 651	I'm at McMurdo working in logisitics with the NY Air National Guard, who fly from here to the pole. My main job down here in the past was services engineer and occasional power plant mechanic. Followed in the footsteps of my old man who was down here in '57-58 with the US programme. I used to work on Kaharoa when she was run by MAF instead of NIWA. Did you have a female 1st mate on Tangaroa? Can't remember her name but sailed with her a bit in the past. She was a lot of fun to go on the turps with at the end of a cruise. I can't recommend any good sparkies in Welly, only know ones around the Sounds. __________________ Pete Positively, socially deviant.

19-02-2006, 06:00	#5
GordMay Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W Boat: C.L.O.D. (Cruiser Living On Dirt) Posts: 12,576	According to their literature, “... Most (not all) CruzPro SARs, including the SAR20(2), require that you have a P type(1) alternator with an external regulator. If you have an N type alternator, or an alternator with a built-in voltage regulator it may need to be modified by a competent electrical installer(3) to be compatible with a SAR ...” (1) Types ‘N’ and ‘P’ differentiate between where the regulation occurs in the Alternator circuitry. An N-Type alternator has a set of diodes, called the diode trio, which supply the positive DC potential required for the rotating field current. The actual regulator switches the negative to achieve the proper field strength to create the desired correct alternator output. The brushes are not grounded. A P-Type alternator is one which one end of the coil which supplies the rotating magnetic field is connected to the negative and the regulator controls the positive side of the coil to regulate the alternator output. One side of the brush will be grounded. ie: Yanmar alternators (AKA Hitachi alternators) are N type and are internally regulated. Many after market regulators are P type. For a N type alternator to work it must be modified. 2 From CruzPro:* http://www.cruzpro.com/sreg.html specifically: http://www.cruzpro.com/sar20.html SAR20: “Drive Capability: P type alternators up to 160 amps (8 amp maximum field winding current).” “AC-20 (Manual Alternator Controller/Alarm) handles P and N type alternators to 160 amps... “ 3 Usually an Alternator Shop is the best choice for converting from N-Type to P-Type, though a talented amateur can DIY. I always gave this job to my Alternator Shop (about $75 with a 'tune-up'), and don’t recommend this as a DIY project. FWIW: To convert to “P-Type”, disconnect both brushes, reconnect 1 brush to ground, connect a new wire to the other brush, and lead the new wire outside the alternator case. Label new wire “Field Type-P”, or simply “F”. Converting “N“ Field Alternator to “P“ Field External Regulation” http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/760/docserve.asp HTH, Gord __________________ Gord May ~~_/)_~~ (Gord & Maggie - "Southbound")* "If you didn't have time/$ to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"

19-02-2006, 23:38	#8
NoTies Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vuda Point, Fiji Islands Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap" Posts: 651	Hi there, Yep, she's in Waikawa berth 4 E 14. It's the first time I've ever had anything to do with this marina and don't really know any of the other boats there. A helicopter pilot from down here (Rob McPhail) used to have a Ganley on that pier so it may have been his. Small world, another guy down here with the NZ programme helped build Nightcap when he worked for Whitings in the late 70s. What's you opinion of the Ganleys? __________________ Pete Positively, socially deviant.

19-02-2006, 01:50	#3
southernman Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Boat: 44 foot bruce farr fractional rig Posts: 163	totally agree - just like to be informed prior to getting my pants ripped off by the experts!! The old sparky's can be rather expensive! Now Pete got to ask what do you do down at the Pole? I took a trip down there a few years back on the NIWA vessel Tangaroa, went to Possesion Island, Pelorus, Cape Hallett etc. Very beautiful part of the world!! Got some great pics - if anyone is interested I'll post some of the nicer ones - great ones of the sea conditions! Southernman

19-02-2006, 14:45	#6
southernman Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Boat: 44 foot bruce farr fractional rig Posts: 163	thank you Gord - you are the first person who has explained this to me in English. I have been around tons of people even ringing Cruzpro so now I understand that is really good. What is your consultation fee?

19-02-2006, 20:01	#7
southernman Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Boat: 44 foot bruce farr fractional rig Posts: 163	Pete, can't remember a lady like that there but I do remember a few goodies down on the ice. By the way is your yacht in Waikawa? I think I saw it while out walking the other weekend. Do you know Material Girl - ganley steel yacht (was in waikawa)? I helped build her in auckland. She used to be on your pier (that is if that was your whiting I saw)

20-02-2006, 00:19	#9
Alan Wheeler Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady Posts: 8,042	Hey Southernman, what you doin over here without giving me a yell. Hey you didn't happen to see that humungouse American yacht in the bay did you? Looks like you me and Pete will have to do a survey on the possible damage caused by cold liquids in glass bottles and the results of emptying said cold liquid. __________________ Wheels For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.

20-02-2006, 00:55	#10
southernman Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Boat: 44 foot bruce farr fractional rig Posts: 163	yeah i was in Nelson on Friday morning and saw it out in the bay - bloody huge - thought it was a America's Cup yacht first off. hmmm must find out where you are moored Mr. Wheels. It's a shame but I finish my job in 2 weeks time to prepare the yacht for our April 29th departure from Opua Bay of Islands. Thats how I get to swan around the country looking at boats - on the company!! I will be doing a single hand trip down to the sounds in early april to test the systems prior to going up the Coast to Opua so maybe a bit of a meeting for some blue and gold sessions.

20-02-2006, 01:24	#11
southernman Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Boat: 44 foot bruce farr fractional rig Posts: 163	Pete on the Ganley front I love em but then I am partial to Steel Boats. The best cruising yacht I've ever sailed on was a modified Ganley Pacemaker - real good. www.fairmetalboats.com/ganley.htm If I could find an unfinished Pacemaker 60 hull I'd buy it and finish it. Instead I'll be building a cat me thinks. Wheels & Pete = posted some pics of my yacht on my gallery and also of the First 44.7 that I race on - photos from Well to Nelson race.

20-02-2006, 01:34	#12
NoTies Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vuda Point, Fiji Islands Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap" Posts: 651	I was instinctively drawn to the Ganleys when we were hunting but unfortunately they were mostly out of our budget although was sorely tempted to borrow and grab one beauty I looked at. I too like steel for the primary reason that I understand it and can fix it. Sounds (pun intended) that there is a raft up in the offing. I see you are a water treatment engineer. Prepare to have you brain picked in a big way, my obsession is long term exposure to low alkanity, demineralised water. Used to deal with (Tim?) from Ace when I was tied up with the NZ programme. Thanks for the link. __________________ Pete Positively, socially deviant.

20-02-2006, 01:44	#13
southernman Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Boat: 44 foot bruce farr fractional rig Posts: 163	bloody nora - it is a small world - know Tim Donaldson reasonable well. Yep been in W/T for a few years now. Do a lot of work on the boats - ie. Sealords, Talleys/Amaltal, Russions etc etc. Do a lot of closed loop, fuel oil treatment, Evaporators , Boilers etc..

20-02-2006, 02:06	#14
NoTies Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vuda Point, Fiji Islands Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap" Posts: 651	We may well have crossed paths then, I was a Sealord engineer for a while. Look forward to hooking up with you, will make plans closer to the time. Pete __________________ Pete Positively, socially deviant.

20-02-2006, 19:59	#15
BC Mike Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Kelowna BC Boat: Tanzer 8.5m Tanzer 22 Posts: 1,029	Caution If all you guys get together over a few suds yuse may all end up cheering for Wellington. Anyone see any of the roundy world boats go by ? We sail in two weeks and it is too cold. My power boat goes in late next week and I will be out checking my marks and it will be too cold, and my new small boat will miss a few of the first races because it is too cold. Did I mention the lack of heat around here. Michael

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