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Old 06-03-2016, 06:47   #61
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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Yes, this might be just like fusion reactors and artificial intelligence that tend to be "just around the corner" for decades.
OR...it could be like personal computers, microwave ovens, cell phones, ipads, GPS, chart plotters, the internet, or LED lights....and change all the rules overnight.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:12   #62
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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OR...it could be like personal computers, microwave ovens, cell phones, ipads, GPS, chart plotters, the internet, or LED lights....and change all the rules overnight.
Yes, that's what I hope. Most of those technologies have been on the shop shelf, and soon after that people have recognized the big changes. But valhalla330 quite correctly pointed out that so far we have mostly prototypes and promises, and that's not quite the same thing yet. Let's wait and hope.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:47   #63
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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Yes, that's what I hope. Most of those technologies have been on the shop shelf, and soon after that people have recognized the big changes. But valhalla330 quite correctly pointed out that so far we have mostly prototypes and promises, and that's not quite the same thing yet. Let's wait and hope.
Agreed but... And it's a big one....

A lot of things sitting on the shelf are there because there is a limited market where they really make sense and that market just isn't big enough to justify the investment in the underlying technology. Here the market driving development is hybrid cars, with billions of dollars a year at stake any improvement in small generators, as range extenders, is a massive win for the car industry.

In addition to the fuel efficency increase of 10%, there is also the weight and size reduction. Which means that car companies can easily add more batteries, further increasing the appeal of a hybrid. So these engines become the focal point of a beneficial engineering spiral, and those are always worth looking into.

Again I have no idea about the engine itself, but if it can live up to its promises I can see why car builders would spend heavily to develop it. Once it's on the market marinizing it is almost trivial by comparison.
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Old 06-03-2016, 10:19   #64
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

To point out again: Beetron at least is apparently pursuing this little engine for sale to customers who are most likely in third world countries and are off the grid or have an unreliable grid, and that is a pretty large market. Many of those customers are currently looking to solar panels and lead acid batteries for their home lighting needs. I don't think anyone is planning to build one and market to yacht owners yet... But if I had a few bucks I'd consider investing in one.
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:26   #65
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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Doesn't matter how efficient a cell is, the critical issues are specific energy (energy per kg) and energy density (energy per litre). And it's going to be a long time before they come up with other practical energy storage media anywhere near the levels of liquid hydrocarbon fuels.
OK.

What about a diesel fuel cell then. Do we run against the same challenge (energy density)? Is the challenge technology related or fuel type related?


And as far as fusion goes. You may be right about portable ones. But aside from some new method of getting plenty of juice from very small and dry limes ... I can see no other way ahead. There may be something new popping up any time, or never. For today it is either fusion or bust. Nuclear plants second best.

First commercial fusion reactor due in 2020 and, should tests prove it is viable, operational in 2027 ...

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Old 06-03-2016, 11:29   #66
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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To point out again: Beetron at least is apparently pursuing this little engine for sale to customers who are most likely in third world countries and are off the grid or have an unreliable grid, and that is a pretty large market. Many of those customers are currently looking to solar panels and lead acid batteries for their home lighting needs. I don't think anyone is planning to build one and market to yacht owners yet... But if I had a few bucks I'd consider investing in one.
If the underlying technology works then I would be happy to invest in marinizing the engine. The problem is that once the technology is available it will take all of a week for the big guys to step in and produce one as well.

Most marine generator companies don't built their own engines anyway, so they really don't have the oportunity cost disadvantage of big factories limiting a switch to this engine.
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:38   #67
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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OK.

What about a diesel fuel cell then. Do we run against the same challenge (energy density)? Is the challenge technology related or fuel type related?


And as far as fusion goes. You may be right about portable ones. But aside from some new method of getting plenty of juice from very small and dry limes ... I can see no other way ahead. There may be something new popping up any time, or never. For today it is either fusion or bust. Nuclear plants second best.

First commercial fusion reactor due in 2020 and, should tests prove it is viable, operational in 2027 ...

b.
The diesel fuel cells I have seen are orders of magnitude less energy dense than this would be. This eventually may be overcome, but that's a different story.

Take a look at http://www.powercell.se/wp-content/u...1/PowerPac.pdf

~150kg for 3kw output

The fuel cell is a good big more efficient than this engine, but substantially larger and heavier.
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Old 06-03-2016, 13:42   #68
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
OK.

What about a diesel fuel cell then. Do we run against the same challenge (energy density)? Is the challenge technology related or fuel type related?


And as far as fusion goes. You may be right about portable ones. But aside from some new method of getting plenty of juice from very small and dry limes ... I can see no other way ahead. There may be something new popping up any time, or never. For today it is either fusion or bust. Nuclear plants second best.

First commercial fusion reactor due in 2020 and, should tests prove it is viable, operational in 2027 ...

b.
Diesel fuel cell? Yes please! As soon as Nordic Power Systems get something to market at a reasonable price, I will be in like Flynn

Nordic Power Systems | World’s first diesel fuel cell generator | NordicGreen - Nordic Cleantech Scandinavia Startups

And I'd also love to see fusion power plants - they will be a world changer in so many ways. And yes, it looks as though we may finally be getting towards that goal. But I don't expect to see one on a cruising boat in my lifetime
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Old 06-03-2016, 13:57   #69
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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And I'd also love to see fusion power plants - they will be a world changer in so many ways. And yes, it looks as though we may finally be getting towards that goal. But I don't expect to see one on a cruising boat in my lifetime
Huh? That is old technology, been out for years...
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Old 06-03-2016, 17:46   #70
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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To point out again: Beetron at least is apparently pursuing this little engine for sale to customers who are most likely in third world countries and are off the grid or have an unreliable grid, and that is a pretty large market. Many of those customers are currently looking to solar panels and lead acid batteries for their home lighting needs. I don't think anyone is planning to build one and market to yacht owners yet... But if I had a few bucks I'd consider investing in one.
They didn't develop LED light bulbs specifically for yachts...but boy do they work great on boats.
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Old 06-03-2016, 17:56   #71
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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They didn't develop LED light bulbs specifically for yachts...but boy do they work great on boats.
Yeah, I'd sure be willing to give it a try, marinized or not.
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Old 07-03-2016, 13:09   #72
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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Well, you sure wouldn't have to replace the alternator belt, alternator, or starter. The main bearing would never fail, or any connecting rods. No transmission worries either. None of those parts exist on this new drive. Simple really is better.
Other than the alternator belt...haven't had any of those fail on me. Alternator belts are usually good for a few years, so while technically less maintenance, not really much of a difference.

Of course, we don't know the failure methods of this engine. The wankle was supposed to simpler and thus more reliable also. Reality is it had different failure methods and the latest mazda version hasn't proven to be any more reliable.
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Old 07-03-2016, 13:12   #73
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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OR...it could be like personal computers, microwave ovens, cell phones, ipads, GPS, chart plotters, the internet, or LED lights....and change all the rules overnight.
For every one of those there are thousands of "game-changers" that never pan out.

I hope I'm wrong. I would love an efficent hybrid system that is cheap and reliable but I'm not going to hold off waiting it to pan out.
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Old 07-03-2016, 13:44   #74
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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Other than the alternator belt...haven't had any of those fail on me. Alternator belts are usually good for a few years, so while technically less maintenance, not really much of a difference.

Of course, we don't know the failure methods of this engine. The wankle was supposed to simpler and thus more reliable also. Reality is it had different failure methods and the latest mazda version hasn't proven to be any more reliable.
At the very least, it should be small/light enough to lift up and put on the dining table and have a really good look at it. Can you do that with your diesel?
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Old 07-03-2016, 13:50   #75
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Re: Could this be a game-changer?

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At the very least, it should be small/light enough to lift up and put on the dining table and have a really good look at it. Can you do that with your diesel?
Actually, I've done that with a 20hp lawnmower motor...got in trouble for putting it on the dining room table but no problem lifting it.

I'm betting I could do the same with some of the little 100hp 1liter car engines. Once you strip off the parphinalia that goes with them, the block can't weigh that much.
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