Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-03-2013, 09:59   #31
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

Quote:
It is just ignorance and stupidity, and not a lack of codes.
well actually it is a lack of codes.....
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 10:06   #32
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,590
Images: 240
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by bazzer View Post
What's RCD?
RCD = Recreational Craft Directive (European Standard)
or
RCD = Residual Current Device (30 mA trip)

RCBO = Residual Current Breakers with Overcurrent protection
GFCI = Ground Fault Circuit Interruptor (5mA trip)
ELCI = Equipment Leakage Circuit Interrupter (30mA trip)
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 10:08   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 449
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
well , thats what you get away with using 110Vac, 220-240Vac and you-all be dead guys. ( which is why were covered in RCDs)
I worked with both 240V AC in Europe and 120V AC in US/Canada. I have to tell you the 120V AC stings more here than one in Europe. It has to do with V*A=W equation ... less V more A at the same W ... and the A (current) is what kills.
__________________
Richard_W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 10:09   #34
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

RCD = Residual Current Device (30 mA trip)


European RCDs are available in a wide variety of trip currents, thats just the standard domestic and general usage trip as specified by certain codes for all house ( all boat) uses.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 10:11   #35
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

Quote:
I worked with both 240V AC in Europe and 120V AC in US/Canada. I have to tell you the 120V AC stings more here than one in Europe. It has to do with V*A=W equation ... less V more A at the same W ... and the A (current) is what kills.
Sorry , that may be a perception, but its technical nonsense, remember its a V=IR issue ( twice the voltage for a given resistance , twice the current!, nor am I aware that the resistance of a US human differs much then elsewhere !) , 110VAC is the mandated voltage on building sites here, 230Vac isnt allowed, theres a very valid reason.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 10:11   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 449
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

Quote:
well actually it is a lack of codes.....
There are codes for that ...

Quote:
110VAC is the mandated voltage on building sites here, 230Vac isnt allowed, theres a very valid reason.
building sites ... where ... sorry you lost me

I was talking about single phase 220-240V AC in Europe ... it is used in most of the Europe ... at least was when I was there.
__________________
Richard_W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 10:16   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_W View Post
There are codes for that ...
The requirement for insurance is that my boat follows the ABYC codes which I read here say to connect the AC ground and the DC ground together, but as several have pointed out it might be a unsafe practice so what the hell am I to do? I'm between a bit of a rock and a hard place on this one!
__________________
bazzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 10:30   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 449
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by bazzer View Post
The requirement for insurance is that my boat follows the ABYC codes which I read here say to connect the AC ground and the DC ground together, but as several have pointed out it might be a unsafe practice so what the hell am I to do? I'm between a bit of a rock and a hard place on this one!
Connecting both grounds, AC and DC, is recommended by ABYC for human safety. It might not be the best approach for some devices, interferences, corrosion, etc.

To minimize the negatives make sure the boat installations are done correctly and well, boat is equipped with galvanic isolator (or isolating transformer), and that the dock/marina is GFCI protected if you plan to use shore power.
__________________
Richard_W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 11:03   #39
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,334
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

Connecting the grounds may improve safety for people IN the boat, but it can be fatal for people swimming in fresh water around the boat.

The last California building code I looked at discouraged RCD's for dock power--the reason given was too many false trips. There were moves to change this--maybe someone with access to the latest code can see whether they have changed their minds.
__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 11:27   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 449
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Connecting the grounds may improve safety for people IN the boat, but it can be fatal for people swimming in fresh water around the boat.
I think it is both ... to protect people in water and in boat. The ABYC E-11 was enacted to prevent well publicized cases of in-water electrocution by faulty and/or not properly grounded boat installations.

Look at this link provided by boatpoker: documents.html ... download/look at the document #11. There is a good illustration how the stray current caused by faulty installation or device failure where AC enters DC circuits is dissipated via AC/DC grounding buses connection to the AC ground (earth) rather than via water (and swimmer) to shore.
__________________
Richard_W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 12:11   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 449
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by bazzer View Post
The requirement for insurance is that my boat follows the ABYC codes which I read here say to connect the AC ground and the DC ground together, but as several have pointed out it might be a unsafe practice so what the hell am I to do? I'm between a bit of a rock and a hard place on this one!
On the second thought ... scrap this topic and call in the real expert like the guy whose website boatpoker referenced. This is TOO SERIOUS to mess around with.
__________________
Richard_W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 12:24   #42
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,319
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

I'm going to stay out of all advise, but in case no one has said this on the thread; West Marine has a good article on bonding/grounding in their advise section on line.
__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2013, 14:07   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,832
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Sorry , that may be a perception, but its technical nonsense, remember its a V=IR issue ( twice the voltage for a given resistance , twice the current!, nor am I aware that the resistance of a US human differs much then elsewhere !) , 110VAC is the mandated voltage on building sites here, 230Vac isnt allowed, theres a very valid reason.

Dave
+1 and glad you corrected it.
How can a person's resistance automatically go up or down between continent's electrical delivery systems ?

Steve
__________________
Memento,homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2013, 14:10   #44
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,943
Re: Correct grounding and bonding

ABYC released this online presentation on Electric Shock Drowning last year, given by Kevin Ritz, a guy who has devoted years to studying ESD... after losing his son to just such an incident.
[edit - this is the same kid mentioned in boat-poker's link]


If you're at all concerned about this issue, spend the hour and watch it. It covers the causes, effects and how to detect faults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Connecting the grounds may improve safety for people IN the boat, but it can be fatal for people swimming in fresh water around the boat.

The last California building code I looked at discouraged RCD's for dock power--the reason given was too many false trips. There were moves to change this--maybe someone with access to the latest code can see whether they have changed their minds.
Electric Shock Drowning is essentially nonexistent in Europe, because for the last 30 or so years they've mandated such protection for all shore-power outlets. They've been able to select a trip current level that provides protection without nuisance trips. In the presentation, I believe it's mentioned that North American standards bodies are proceeding towards a similar standard.

Grounding the boat to shorepower via a galvanic isolater, as per ABYC E-11, is sensible.
__________________

__________________
Lake-Effect is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.