Cooked Balmar AT-200

[kenbo]

Originally Posted by rom

I am looking at this right now, did you install it ? any results you can share ?

Not on my boat, not really needed with flooded batteries and a heavily built 105A alternator. But I have installedon two other boats. The alternator issues usually start with installing low internal resistance batteries like some AGM's and LiFePO. They suck every bit of power the alternator can possibly deliver and the overheating begins.

On the two installs I have done, I completely disconnected the bridge rectifier on the alternator as well as the B+ and ground from the back of the alt.

Extended the stator leads to the remote 420A bridge rectifier and took the POS and NEG cables from there to the house bank.

Both were 12v Balmar small case based on the Delco CS144. One was 120A the other a 150A. The 120 works well without derating, the 150 still needs to be derated but the owner reports better than 100A continuously. They both have over AGM banks but from different manufactures.

[rom]

Thank you Kenbo this is interesting information ! I don't have AGM nor LFP but at 1000Ah my house batt can suck a lot of amps ... I will get in touch with those guys at alternatorparts.

[kenbo]

Originally Posted by rom

Thank you Kenbo this is interesting information ! I don't have AGM nor LFP but at 1000Ah my house batt can suck a lot of amps ... I will get in touch with those guys at alternatorparts.

Just make sure you use tinned wire and not the wire supplied by them.

[Jd1]

Originally Posted by ayates

I have been really impressed talking with these folk: Marine Smart Energy

No connection, and not actually purchased an alternator from them yet. But they have been great to work with pre-sales.


Allan.

These guys appear to be Electromaax themselves and have a terrible reputation (do a search).
Did the reputation finally get so low that they required a new coat of paint and a re-name ?
Buyer beware !

[kenbo]

Originally Posted by Jd1

These guys appear to be Electromaax themselves and have a terrible reputation (do a search).
Did the reputation finally get so low that they required a new coat of paint and a re-name ?
Buyer beware !

I was going to say something as well but I really hate to bad mouth another person's business. But... they did screw me once and I'll never go back.

[ErikFinn]

Originally Posted by kenbo

...On the two installs I have done, I completely disconnected the bridge rectifier on the alternator as well as the B+ and ground from the back of the alt.

Extended the stator leads to the remote 420A bridge rectifier and took the POS and NEG cables from there to the house bank.

Both were 12v Balmar small case based on the Delco CS144. One was 120A the other a 150A. The 120 works well without derating, the 150 still needs to be derated but the owner reports better than 100A continuously. They both have over AGM banks but from different manufactures.

Hi Kenbo,
is that the "quicktifier" you are referring to?
Another thing I'd be interested to know; which Balmar alt is based on the CS144? I always thought the CS144 is NOT a small case alt but I have never seen one irl. I've been toying with an idea to build my own custom 12SI but you got me interested in the CS144.
Cheers,
Erik

[kenbo]

Originally Posted by ErikFinn

Hi Kenbo,
is that the "quicktifier" you are referring to?
Another thing I'd be interested to know; which Balmar alt is based on the CS144? I always thought the CS144 is NOT a small case alt but I have never seen one irl. I've been toying with an idea to build my own custom 12SI but you got me interested in the CS144.
Cheers,
Erik

Erik,

Yes it is the Quicktifier.

The CS144 is a small case alternator. I believe the mounting bolt holes are about 7" c to c. How much amperage are you trying to get out of your alternator? A SI12 can produce about 90A continuously if built well. A CS144 about 120A. I favor the 12SI due to the ease of building, repair and parts availability. The CS144 is a very good alternator but there's no magic, it's still small case.

What kind of battery bank are you charging? If you can live within the confines of 90A, keep the single belt drive stay with a SI12, use good bearings, a 210A bridge rectifier and a 94A stator. If you use a Quicktifier and don't use the internal rectifier, you could push it to the 105A stator which gives very good low RPM output.

I have a 10SI with the 105A stator with internal regulation charging a 460ah flooded bank. It meets my needs very well but your needs may be quite different. Solar is your friend too.

[wsmurdoch]

I looked at pulling the field wire out the back of a GM CS144 alternator and using that alternator with an external 'smart' regulator, but with its 144mm rotor, it seemed too big for the space that I have on the side of my engine. Life is full of compromises. I started with a 10DN, then a CS130 and now the CS130D; all one hole, 2" spool mounts, with 6.6" between the ears alternators. The extra diameter of the CS144 was too much for my space.

As the Stones said...
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you might find
You get what you need...
I'm still trying.

See the photos and the table at https://www.hotrodhotline.com/tuff-stuff-gm-alternators for a rundown of the GM alternators (where they call the CS144 large case), and Alternator Interchange - Alternator Swap for some comparisons of different automotive mounts.

[ErikFinn]

Originally Posted by kenbo

Erik,

Yes it is the Quicktifier.

The CS144 is a small case alternator. I believe the mounting bolt holes are about 7" c to c. How much amperage are you trying to get out of your alternator? A SI12 can produce about 90A continuously if built well. A CS144 about 120A. I favor the 12SI due to the ease of building, repair and parts availability. The CS144 is a very good alternator but there's no magic, it's still small case.

What kind of battery bank are you charging? If you can live within the confines of 90A, keep the single belt drive stay with a SI12, use good bearings, a 210A bridge rectifier and a 94A stator. If you use a Quicktifier and don't use the internal rectifier, you could push it to the 105A stator which gives very good low RPM output.

I have a 10SI with the 105A stator with internal regulation charging a 460ah flooded bank. It meets my needs very well but your needs may be quite different. Solar is your friend too.

Well I have 680W of solar and a 450 ah Trojan T105 FLA bank at 12V (maybe increase to 675ah in the future) but at the moment I feel like going to a serpentine kit would become too expensive so I'm thinking a single V-belt should suffice and that would limit me to 100a. Furthermore, considering the Mark Grasser regulator (as opposed to the Sterling one) as I feeel a Balmar 614 with temp sensors would become a bit too pricey. Also maybe a Quiktifier, but I'm not sure if I would actually need that. So, you can see my line of thinking; although there are much much better equipment out there (at much higher investment) I'm keen to think that a proven old school alt with an average regulator might fill my needs, a system that would work for me. I reckon the 12si and the regulator would total about 500 USD shipping included. A Balmar small case HO alt (or equivalent) and a 614 and serpentine kit would be close to 2000 USD I guess. If I can preserve the bank to 50% SOC until morning then I'm tempted to think that a 94a 12si might be sufficient. Acceptance would taper off anyways after a short while. And the generation due to heat build up. And then continue on with the solar. Btw, currently I have a 70a Bosch. But.. as you may have gathered, this subject fascinates me..

[kenbo]

Originally Posted by ErikFinn

Well I have 680W of solar and a 450 ah Trojan T105 FLA bank at 12V (maybe increase to 675ah in the future) but at the moment I feel like going to a serpentine kit would become too expensive so I'm thinking a single V-belt should suffice and that would limit me to 100a. Furthermore, considering the Mark Grasser regulator (as opposed to the Sterling one) as I feeel a Balmar 614 with temp sensors would become a bit too pricey. Also maybe a Quiktifier, but I'm not sure if I would actually need that. So, you can see my line of thinking; although there are much much better equipment out there (at much higher investment) I'm keen to think that a proven old school alt with an average regulator might fill my needs, a system that would work for me. I reckon the 12si and the regulator would total about 500 USD shipping included. A Balmar small case HO alt (or equivalent) and a 614 and serpentine kit would be close to 2000 USD I guess. If I can preserve the bank to 50% SOC until morning then I'm tempted to think that a 94a 12si might be sufficient. Acceptance would taper off anyways after a short while. And the generation due to heat build up. And then continue on with the solar. Btw, currently I have a 70a Bosch. But.. as you may have gathered, this subject fascinates me..

Erik,

I'm very old school but I believe there is real value in being able to easily repair and modify equipment on your boat. If you go with a single belt drive, 94A 12SI I'm not sure there is real value in external regulation for Trojan GC batteries. What features does an external regulator give you that you need. An internal regulator with a Vset of 14.6v on a 12SI can easily sense voltage at the battery, will give you the same bulk charge, the same or better absorption since it won't time out and unless you motor most days for more than 4-5 hours I'm not sure float has any value at all for flooded batteries. Battery temperature sensing is the only feature you are giving up that has value. If alternator heat becomes an issue you can put a rheostat in the field circuit and adjust to suit.

[wsmurdoch]

Originally Posted by kenbo

If you go with a single belt drive, 94A 12SI I'm not sure there is real value in external regulation for Trojan GC batteries. What features does an external regulator give you that you need.

It was things discussed in this article among others that drove me to install an external 3-stage regulator on my alternator. Automotive Alternators vs. Deep Cycle Batteries Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

I brought the field+ wire out of the alternators myself (the CS130D [Lester 8396] was easier to do than the CS130), and I left the factory regulator intact in case I needed it later.

All that said, the external regulator's sensing of the alternator case temperature cuts the alternator output down from 100-90A to 50-40A or so after 15 to 20 minutes running in 85-90F weather. The output amperage then cycles up and down as the alternator overheats and cools unless I close a switch to short the alternator temperature connections on the regulator to lock the alternator at the lower output, or until I reprogram the external regulator to limit the field current (field voltage ?) with belt manager. That is why I'm trying to send cooler air to the alternator's back side to see if I can keep the alternator case cooler while it is producing 100A. At that point and above the single 1/2" vee belt makes dust at an alarming rate.

[ErikFinn]

Originally Posted by kenbo

Erik,

I'm very old school but I believe there is real value in being able to easily repair and modify equipment on your boat. If you go with a single belt drive, 94A 12SI I'm not sure there is real value in external regulation for Trojan GC batteries. What features does an external regulator give you that you need. An internal regulator with a Vset of 14.6v on a 12SI can easily sense voltage at the battery, will give you the same bulk charge, the same or better absorption since it won't time out and unless you motor most days for more than 4-5 hours I'm not sure float has any value at all for flooded batteries. Battery temperature sensing is the only feature you are giving up that has value. If alternator heat becomes an issue you can put a rheostat in the field circuit and adjust to suit.

I reckon one of the most valuable feature a Mark Grasser regulator would give me is the "Field Current Soft Start". As far as I understand correct, that would ramp up the generation slowly, in increments, when starting the engine with bat bank depleted, hopefully preventing belt slippage and belt dust. The idea here is to maximize the alternator amps make&model for use with a single V-belt, while hopefully preventing belt dust, meaning not over 100 amps from what I've understood.
Its got temp sensors for both the alt and bats, which is nice.

Mark Grasser - DC Power Solutions


Balmar 614 is 367$ at defender but does not include the two temp sensors, which would be about 100$, bringing the total to near 500$ or over with shipping. 614 apparently is very nice except for the programming, and has the capability to user-limit the generation, "Belt Load Manager" I guess they call it.
But at 500$ and having solar, I'm not convinced the 614 would be the best buy for me, and I have read about them braking down but that might be just a case of them having been sold in volumes so inevitably one would read on the internet chat rooms some brake down.

[a64pilot]

If you get the Mark Grasser regulator, be sure to get it with the force to float switch.
Not to force to float, but it will reset the regulator and it will go back to absorption voltage when it drops to float very prematurely, which it will do.
Mine did anyway.
Mine is now a spare, but while it is not the best, I do consider it an excellent value.