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Old 23-06-2013, 14:44   #61
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

There is a part in Rule 20 of the COLREGS that states nav lights SHALL COMPLY with Annex I and many folks miss this critical section. This is what it means, by US Federal Law and the COLREGS to be considered a "navigation light"....

From 33 CFR 84:


Colors

� 84.13 Color specification of lights
(a) The chromaticity of all navigation lights shall conform to the following standards, which lie within the boundaries of the area of the diagram specified for each color by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE), in the "Colors of Light Signals", which is incorporated by reference. It is Publication CIE No. 2.2. (TC-1.6), 1975, and is available from the Illumination Engineering Society, 345 East 47th Street, New York, NY 10017. It is also available for inspection at the Office of the Federal Register, Room 8401, 1100 L Street N.W., Washington, D.C. 20408. This incorporation by reference was approved by the Director of the Federal Register.
(b) The boundaries of the area for each color are given by indicating the corner coordinates, which are as follows:
(1) White:
x 0.525 0.525 0.452 0.310 0.310 0.443
y 0.382 0.440 0.440 0.348 0.283 0.382
(2) Green:
x 0.028 0.009 0.300 0.203
y 0.385 0.723 0.511 0.356
(3) Red:
x 0.680 0.660 0.735 0.721
y 0.320 0.320 0.265 0.259
(4) Yellow:
x 0.612 0.618 0.575 0.575
y 0.382 0.382 0.425 0.406

Intensity

� 84.15 Intensity of lights
(a) The minimum luminous intensity of lights shall be calculated by using the formula:
l = 3.43 x 106 x T x D2 x K-D
where:
I is luminous intensity in candelas under service conditions, T is threshold factor 2 x 10-7 lux, D is range of visibility (luminous range) of the light in nautical miles, K is atmospheric transmissivity. For prescribed lights the value of K shall be 0.8, corresponding to a meteorological visibility of approximately 13 nautical miles.
(b) A selection of figures derived from the formula is given in Table 84.15(b).
Table 84.15(b)
Range of visibility (luminous Minimum
range) of light in nautical luminous intensity of light
miles in candelas tor K = 0.8
D I
1 0.9
2 4.3
3 12
4 27
5 52
6 94

Horizontal Sectors

� 84.17 Horizontal sectors
(a)
(1) In the forward direction, sidelights as fitted on the vessel shall show the minimum required intensities. The intensities shall decrease to reach practical cut-off between 1 and 3 degrees outside the prescribed sectors.
(2) For sternlights and masthead lights and at 22.5 degrees abaft the beam for sidelights, the minimum required intensities shall be maintained over the arc of the horizon up to 5 degrees within the limits of the sectors prescribed in Rule 21. From 5 degrees within the prescribed sectors the intensity may decrease by 50 percent up to the prescribed limits; it shall decrease steadily to reach practical cutoff at not more than 5 degrees outside the prescribed sectors. (b) All-round lights shall be so located as not to be obscured by masts, topmasts or structures within angular sectors of more than 6 degrees, except anchor lights prescribed in Rule 30, which need not be placed at an impracticable height above the hull, and the all-round white light described in Rule 23(d), which may not be obscured at all. (c) If it is impracticable to comply with paragraph (b) of this section by exhibiting only one all-round light, two all-round lights shall be used suitably positioned or screened to appear, as far as practicable, as one light at a minimum distance of one nautical mile.

NOTE to paragraph (c): Two unscreened all-round lights that are 1.28 meters apart or less will appear as one light to the naked eye at a distance of one nautical mile.


Vertical Sectors

� 84.19 Vertical sectors
(a) The vertical sectors of electric lights as fitted, with the exception of lights on sailing vessels underway and on unmanned barges, shall ensure that:
(1) At least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angles from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal;
(2) At least 60 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained from 7.5 degrees above to 7.5 degrees below the horizontal.
(b) In the case of sailing vessels underway the vertical sectors of electric lights as fitted shall ensure that:
(1) At least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angles from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal;
(2) At least 50 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained from 25 degrees above to 25 degrees below the horizontal.
(c) In the case of unmanned barges the minimum required intensity of electric lights as fitted shall be maintained on the horizontal.
(d) In the case of lights other than electric lights these specifications shall be met as closely as possible.


This is what USCG / ABYC A-16 navigation lights are tested to and all nav lights "shall comply" with regardless of certification..


To see where in the COLREGS lights are defined and what those requirements are you need to look no further than Rule 20:

Quote:
Originally Posted by USCG Nav Center

Rule 20 - Application


Quote:
Originally Posted by USCG Nav Center

(a) Rules in this part shall be complied with in all weathers.

(b) The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.

(c) The lights prescribed by these Rules shall, if carried, also be exhibited from sunrise to sunset in restricted visibility and may be exhibited in all other circumstances when it is deemed necessary.

(d) The Rules concerning shapes shall be complied with by day.

(e) The lights and shapes specified in these Rules shall comply with the provisions of Annex I [to these Regulations | of these Rules].


Annex I takes you straight to the CFR definitions of a nav light as posted above... "shall comply with the provisions of Annex I" is not worded lightly. This means every boaters nav lights shall comply with the CFR specs above.. This is not a gray area as I see it and read it...


There are plenty of certified NAV lights on the market that meet the COLREGS standards but only two or three tested and certified for use in an already existing fixture. The only after market bulb that is certified, and has the testing certs to back it up, for use in existing fixtures, are made by Dr. LED but only for use in certain Aqua Signal Series 40 fixtures such as bow red, bow green and all-round..

There is no requirement I know of that you as a private boat owner install "certified" lights. However, it is the law that your lights "shall comply" with Rule 20 / 33CFR 84 for distance, horizontal sectors, color and vertical sectors. How do you know they will without any testing?

The easiest way to know your lights comply is to simply purchase USCG / ABYC A-16 certified navigation lights. Prices have come way down in recent months...
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Old 23-06-2013, 15:26   #62
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
There is no requirement I know of that you as a private boat owner install "certified" lights. However, it is the law that your lights "shall comply" with Rule 20 / 33CFR 84 for distance, horizontal sectors, color and vertical sectors. How do you know they will without any testing?

The easiest way to know your lights comply is to simply purchase USCG / ABYC A-16 certified navigation lights. Prices have come way down in recent months...
Sorry to disagree, but you cannot assure compliance by simply buying a certified navigation light. Navigation lights are certified by the manufacture as a unit, with the boat. The only way to assure certification is to buy an exact replacement for the original lights (assuming post 2001 manufacturing date) and having them installed by the original builder. You cannot install them yourself and maintain certification. If you read the rules literally it would seem that only the original manufacturer can change the bulb. Prior to that your just screwed because unless you are willing to pay for a complete engineering study that shows that you self installed lights meet all of the angle requirements as installed, not as purchased, you will not be able to prove compliance. I have neve heard of anyone doing that, but I suppose a lawyer trying to shift blame would certainly do so to prove you were not in compliance.
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Old 23-06-2013, 15:29   #63
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

I see over and over again tons of people talking about certified nav lights and compliance, but has anyone ever cited a case where nav light certification was a sticking point? Has there ever been actual litigation on "was it certified?"

Its pretty shocking to me how crazy this world has gotten. I mean how hard is it for a person to check to make sure their lights are red/green/white, make sure you can see them at the proper angles, and make sure you can see them from 2-3 miles?
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Old 23-06-2013, 16:24   #64
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Target9000 View Post
Its pretty shocking to me how crazy this world has gotten. I mean how hard is it for a person to check to make sure their lights are red/green/white, make sure you can see them at the proper angles, and make sure you can see them from 2-3 miles?
I do agree that the world has gone a bit crazy and litigation, rather than common sense drives too many actions.

However I do see a number of navigation lights that have been converted to Led and are just wrong.
Usually the brightness is fine, but the cut off angles are often poor. In addition the colours are often incorrect. This is particularly a factor for the 8% of males that are colour defective.

I am not totally pessimistic. In the "good old days" many small boats sailed offshore with no lights, but good bright led navigation lights with accurate colours,cut off points and great brightness are becoming available for reasonable prices and I think its time to consider fitting these as standard.

The led bulbs fitted to incandescent fixtures are often poor in at least one aspect in anything other than a white 360 degree anchor light.
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Old 23-06-2013, 17:22   #65
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
Sorry to disagree, but you cannot assure compliance by simply buying a certified navigation light. Navigation lights are certified by the manufacture as a unit, with the boat. The only way to assure certification is to buy an exact replacement for the original lights (assuming post 2001 manufacturing date) and having them installed by the original builder. You cannot install them yourself and maintain certification. If you read the rules literally it would seem that only the original manufacturer can change the bulb. Prior to that your just screwed because unless you are willing to pay for a complete engineering study that shows that you self installed lights meet all of the angle requirements as installed, not as purchased, you will not be able to prove compliance. I have neve heard of anyone doing that, but I suppose a lawyer trying to shift blame would certainly do so to prove you were not in compliance.


rodlmao....hilarious!!!
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Old 23-06-2013, 17:42   #66
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
I
Bulbs which are non-approved null-invoid your insurance
cover .. (snip)
It is a bit mischievous of them to suggest using non-approved bulbs will invalidate insurance. Insurance will only be invalidated if your non compliance was a factor in the accident.
I have seen that statement in the Aqua Signal docs.. +1 on the mischief charge against them. I would also add the charge of "crimes against the English language". Where did they learn that "null-invoid" is a verb?
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Old 23-06-2013, 17:45   #67
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
Sorry to disagree, but you cannot assure compliance by simply buying a certified navigation light.
No you can not "assure" compliance because they then need to be installed correctly. If installed correctly and they are certified navigation lights then they do meet the COLREGS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
Navigation lights are certified by the manufacture as a unit, with the boat.
Huh..??. Nav lights are tested and certified by labs like Imanna for compliance with the Code of Federal Regulations/COLREGS as a fixture, not with a boat.. It is then up to the boat builder to properly install them. I see tons of examples of boat builders who do not install them correctly so this is absolutely not a "given"...

There is no certification being done at the boat builder level only the occasional spot check by NMMA, ABYC or the USCG. The light fixtures are certified independently by third party testing facilities as navigation lights..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
The only way to assure certification is to buy an exact replacement for the original lights (assuming post 2001 manufacturing date) and having them installed by the original builder.
Please cite a factual reference for this claim..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
You cannot install them yourself and maintain certification.
Yes you absolutely can IF they are installed correctly so as to maintain vertical & horizontal sectors among others. It is not difficult.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
If you read the rules literally it would seem that only the original manufacturer can change the bulb.
I have no idea where you come up with this of what part of the CFR you are reading...??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
Prior to that your just screwed because unless you are willing to pay for a complete engineering study that shows that you self installed lights meet all of the angle requirements as installed, not as purchased, you will not be able to prove compliance. I have neve heard of anyone doing that, but I suppose a lawyer trying to shift blame would certainly do so to prove you were not in compliance.
It is not difficult to follow instructions for installation. If properly installed and the lights are certified then you have COLREGS compliant navigation lights.

Builders are required to install certified navigation lights. They are also required to install them properly.

You as a boat owner are not required to install certified navigation lights but they still must, "shall" is the word they use, meet the criteria laid out to be in compliance as a navigation light. They must also be installed properly or they simply won't meet the requirement..
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Old 23-06-2013, 17:47   #68
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

Give me a break! In my lifetime, oil lamps were legal! The rules are simple, the only problem is folks who don't have enough ELECTRICITY!! to power lights that are bright enough to be legal, so they are trying to find something new to help them out, so there microwaves will have enough power to make breakfast !! or coffee! To run good lights ya need power and if ya need to run them all night it takes MORE Power! Some of yall need to spend a little more on your power systems and storage systems so this will not be a problem !!! Weak lights that use less power are a waste of time and money!! Believe me if hung right oil lamps made for running lights, supply enough power to be seen for the proper distances! I ran them for 5 or 6 yrs on my colvin till we could afford to have enough power to use electric lights!! Just sayin work on you system to have enought storage to run those good lights !
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Old 23-06-2013, 17:48   #69
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

insurance...rodlmao---i own a 37 yr old formposa. you are telling me that my insurance is going to be null and void if i use brand X nav lights, and that i have to go to manufacturer for replacements and have some chinaman in taiwan change em out for me...this is such a hilarious thread....rodlmao....


more entertaining with each answer....

btw oil lamps are still legal.....
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Old 23-06-2013, 18:04   #70
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

Got lights.



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Old 23-06-2013, 18:29   #71
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

Mark, Ya got Power to LOL
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Old 23-06-2013, 18:43   #72
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
There is a part in Rule 20 of the COLREGS that states nav lights SHALL COMPLY with Annex I and many folks miss this critical section. This is what it means, by US Federal Law and the COLREGS to be considered a "navigation light"....

From 33 CFR 84:

Colors

� 84.13 Color specification of lights
(a) The chromaticity of all navigation lights shall conform to the following standards, which lie within the boundaries of the area of the diagram specified for each color by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE), in the "Colors of Light Signals", which is incorporated by reference. It is Publication CIE No. 2.2. (TC-1.6), 1975, and is available from the Illumination Engineering Society, 345 East 47th Street, New York, NY 10017. It is also available for inspection at the Office of the Federal Register, Room 8401, 1100 L Street N.W., Washington, D.C. 20408. This incorporation by reference was approved by the Director of the Federal Register.
(b) The boundaries of the area for each color are given by indicating the corner coordinates, which are as follows:
(1) White:
x 0.525 0.525 0.452 0.310 0.310 0.443
y 0.382 0.440 0.440 0.348 0.283 0.382
(2) Green:
x 0.028 0.009 0.300 0.203
y 0.385 0.723 0.511 0.356
(3) Red:
x 0.680 0.660 0.735 0.721
y 0.320 0.320 0.265 0.259
(4) Yellow:
x 0.612 0.618 0.575 0.575
y 0.382 0.382 0.425 0.406

Intensity

� 84.15 Intensity of lights
(a) The minimum luminous intensity of lights shall be calculated by using the formula:
l = 3.43 x 106 x T x D2 x K-D
where:
I is luminous intensity in candelas under service conditions, T is threshold factor 2 x 10-7 lux, D is range of visibility (luminous range) of the light in nautical miles, K is atmospheric transmissivity. For prescribed lights the value of K shall be 0.8, corresponding to a meteorological visibility of approximately 13 nautical miles.
(b) A selection of figures derived from the formula is given in Table 84.15(b).
Table 84.15(b)
Range of visibility (luminous Minimum
range) of light in nautical luminous intensity of light
miles in candelas tor K = 0.8
D I
1 0.9
2 4.3
3 12
4 27
5 52
6 94

Horizontal Sectors

� 84.17 Horizontal sectors
(a)
(1) In the forward direction, sidelights as fitted on the vessel shall show the minimum required intensities. The intensities shall decrease to reach practical cut-off between 1 and 3 degrees outside the prescribed sectors.
(2) For sternlights and masthead lights and at 22.5 degrees abaft the beam for sidelights, the minimum required intensities shall be maintained over the arc of the horizon up to 5 degrees within the limits of the sectors prescribed in Rule 21. From 5 degrees within the prescribed sectors the intensity may decrease by 50 percent up to the prescribed limits; it shall decrease steadily to reach practical cutoff at not more than 5 degrees outside the prescribed sectors. (b) All-round lights shall be so located as not to be obscured by masts, topmasts or structures within angular sectors of more than 6 degrees, except anchor lights prescribed in Rule 30, which need not be placed at an impracticable height above the hull, and the all-round white light described in Rule 23(d), which may not be obscured at all. (c) If it is impracticable to comply with paragraph (b) of this section by exhibiting only one all-round light, two all-round lights shall be used suitably positioned or screened to appear, as far as practicable, as one light at a minimum distance of one nautical mile.

NOTE to paragraph (c): Two unscreened all-round lights that are 1.28 meters apart or less will appear as one light to the naked eye at a distance of one nautical mile.


Vertical Sectors

� 84.19 Vertical sectors
(a) The vertical sectors of electric lights as fitted, with the exception of lights on sailing vessels underway and on unmanned barges, shall ensure that:
(1) At least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angles from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal;
(2) At least 60 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained from 7.5 degrees above to 7.5 degrees below the horizontal.
(b) In the case of sailing vessels underway the vertical sectors of electric lights as fitted shall ensure that:
(1) At least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angles from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal;
(2) At least 50 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained from 25 degrees above to 25 degrees below the horizontal.
(c) In the case of unmanned barges the minimum required intensity of electric lights as fitted shall be maintained on the horizontal.
(d) In the case of lights other than electric lights these specifications shall be met as closely as possible.


This is what USCG / ABYC A-16 navigation lights are tested to and all nav lights "shall comply" with regardless of certification..


To see where in the COLREGS lights are defined and what those requirements are you need to look no further than Rule 20:

Quote:
Originally Posted by USCG Nav Center

Rule 20 - Application

Quote:
Originally Posted by USCG Nav Center

(a) Rules in this part shall be complied with in all weathers.

(b) The Rules concerning lights shall be complied with from sunset to sunrise, and during such times no other lights shall be exhibited, except such lights which cannot be mistaken for the lights specified in these Rules or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of a proper look-out.

(c) The lights prescribed by these Rules shall, if carried, also be exhibited from sunrise to sunset in restricted visibility and may be exhibited in all other circumstances when it is deemed necessary.

(d) The Rules concerning shapes shall be complied with by day.

(e) The lights and shapes specified in these Rules shall comply with the provisions of Annex I [to these Regulations | of these Rules].

Annex I takes you straight to the CFR definitions of a nav light as posted above... "shall comply with the provisions of Annex I" is not worded lightly. This means every boaters nav lights shall comply with the CFR specs above.. This is not a gray area as I see it and read it...


There are plenty of certified NAV lights on the market that meet the COLREGS standards but only two or three tested and certified for use in an already existing fixture. The only after market bulb that is certified, and has the testing certs to back it up, for use in existing fixtures, are made by Dr. LED but only for use in certain Aqua Signal Series 40 fixtures such as bow red, bow green and all-round..

There is no requirement I know of that you as a private boat owner install "certified" lights. However, it is the law that your lights "shall comply" with Rule 20 / 33CFR 84 for distance, horizontal sectors, color and vertical sectors. How do you know they will without any testing?

The easiest way to know your lights comply is to simply purchase USCG / ABYC A-16 certified navigation lights. Prices have come way down in recent months...

what are you talking about?? red on port,
green on starboard. did they change it?
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Old 29-09-2013, 10:07   #73
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

For many years I stood watch on ships and very large boats (300 foot) and I was the guy people said was asleep, or down getting coffee. Nonsense, US vessels keep constant watch !

But as close as we came to colliding with sailboats and killing their occupants, was with those using ONLY a masthead tricolor.

Viewed from the height of an elevated bridge above, in limited visibility, a light at masthead height appears the same as a deck level light on a vessel much farther away. It looks like a low light that is much farther away, when in fact it is dangerously close. By the time the lookout or helmsman can see the boat hull and mast, the vessels are dangerously close.

Using BOTH masthead and deck level navigation lights solves this problem, and at very low energy cost, using LEDs.

Also, any combined light, from a distance and in poor visibility, tends to blend into a single odd colored light, when viewed in a head on situation. This is confusing, and can cost you your life. I prefer separate red and green lights with as much distance between them as the vessel's construction allows.

Single combined lights are cheaper to buy and to wire, and look neat and out of the way on yachts at the boat show.

The question is , is that important enough to risk your vessel and life.

I have been on the freighter, and have been on the little sailboat. I have well separated side lights. I love life.
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Old 29-09-2013, 10:19   #74
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Re: Confused about navigation lights

I am completely in agreement with Bestathook and would add that when you see a ship it may not see you. Sailboats do not give a great radar return and without AIS you would do well to turn on your spreader and deck lights and shine a spotlight on the sails!
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Old 29-09-2013, 10:20   #75
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Mast head tricolour seems to bt an English speaking county thing. Rarely see them elsewhere . They don't get fitted on med boats as standard

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