Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-06-2014, 12:10   #16
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

One place you want to be picky about fuse size is for motors, like bilge pumps. If something jams the pump and locks the rotor it will draw more current. Maybe not so much as to trip the oversize fuse, but enough that eventually the pump could catch on fire. Use the size fuse recommended by the manufacturer.


In industry there are special motor circuit breakers that you can adjust to the exact number of amps required to stop power from motors that are expensive and could catch fire from locked rotor and other faults. Not needed here, just need the correct fuse.
__________________

__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 12:23   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: East of the river CT
Boat: Oday Mariner 19 , Four Winns Marquis 16 OB, Kingfisher III
Posts: 445
Send a message via Skype™ to Colin A
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Yes the adjustable trip breakers are pretty cool. You have to watch the trip curves on breakers if your protecting loads but we have some boat builders who do it and often the government boats we build equipment for require fuses be replaced by breakers so we do stock some odd size (2.5A, 3A, 4A, 7.5A etc) so they can pull all the fuses out of the equipment. There are certain exceptions to this but not alot.
__________________

__________________
mysite: Colinism.com
Work for
Bass Products
Colin A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 12:25   #18
Registered User
 
S/V Alchemy's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto
Boat: Custom 41' Steel Pilothouse Cutter
Posts: 4,575
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post

One idea I am toying with is a "forward Distribution Panel" - A terminal box abeam the mast or so. Everything for the mast and forward stops here with terminals.

So the cabin lights would go -

- Aft DC bus
- Cabin Light Master switch
- Master Fuse
- a single pair to forward dist box
- 5 pairs to 5 (LED) lights - not fused because it's all 14g and master fuse is sized appropriately for 14g (5a)?
Sounds decent, as 14ga is plenty for LEDs. Subpanels are a great idea, because they can isolate the problem to a few circuits. I have two in the forward saloon/galley, one port and one starboard, with room to add in low-amp stuff like LED spots, etc. without having to run back to the main DC panel.
__________________
Can't sleep? Read www.alchemy2009.blogspot.com for fast relief. Can't read? Avoid www.volumesofsalt.blogspot.com, because it's just personal reviews of sea books.
S/V Alchemy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 15:04   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 142
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

If you're thinking about distribution panels, don't do it by halves. Why would you run 40' of wire for the forward cabin back to the nav station so you can turn off the lights remotely? Distributed power reduces the amount, size and cost of wiring, and is a whole lot easier than the traditional approach.
__________________
svinshallah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 17:07   #20
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
For sure I am. But when people say "Fuse for the wire" and then you start reading wire charts the question arises for 14g.

The wire is capable of 25 amps. I've never seen a boat with a 25amp fuse for the VHF. So there is an exception to the rule or the rule is wrong.
One little note. While 14 gauge wire can on a good day take 25 amps per the NEC. One little thing they don't cover well is corrosion on boats. As a crimp joint ages corrosion will form on the aluminum crimp as the aluminum oxides, which adds resistance and heat. Myself, I've melted a 20 amp fuse holder with a 11 amp solar load after a year in 10 gauge wire, in what I thought was a water proof fuse holder. The fuse was in a dry location too.

For boating it is far safer to size wire and fuses/ breakers for the 3 percent loss current as this will keep the amps low enough that any corrosion at the crimp joint does not produce excess heat. Yes using tinned wire reduces corrosion on the wire, but does nothing about galvanic corrosion between the aluminum crimp and tin/copper wire. It's the whole "Lucas Electrics" issue all over again.
__________________
sailorchic34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 17:21   #21
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
One little note. While 14 gauge wire can on a good day take 25 amps per the NEC. One little thing they don't cover well is corrosion on boats. As a crimp joint ages corrosion will form on the aluminum crimp as the aluminum oxides, which adds resistance and heat. Myself, I've melted a 20 amp fuse holder with a 11 amp solar load after a year in 10 gauge wire, in what I thought was a water proof fuse holder. The fuse was in a dry location too.

For boating it is far safer to size wire and fuses/ breakers for the 3 percent loss current as this will keep the amps low enough that any corrosion at the crimp joint does not produce excess heat. Yes using tinned wire reduces corrosion on the wire, but does nothing about galvanic corrosion between the aluminum crimp and tin/copper wire. It's the whole "Lucas Electrics" issue all over again.

If anyone is using "aluminum" crimp terminals they get what they deserve. Crimp terminals used on boats should be tin plated copper....
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 18:22   #22
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
If anyone is using "aluminum" crimp terminals they get what they deserve. Crimp terminals used on boats should be tin plated copper....
Oh I agree completely.

However, Ancor crimps at WM and other marine stores come in two flavors, with heat shrink tubing and with non-heat shrink nylon insulator. They are generally side by side in the electrical section.

The Connector with heat shrink tubing is tinned copper, The non-heat shrink connector is Tada... Aluminum. I've verified this with destructive testing and from Ancor's website.
__________________
sailorchic34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 18:35   #23
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Oh I agree completely.

However, Ancor crimps at WM and other marine stores come in two flavors, with heat shrink tubing and with non-heat shrink nylon insulator. They are generally side by side in the electrical section.

The Connector with heat shrink tubing is tinned copper, The non-heat shrink connector is Tada... Aluminum. I've verified this with destructive testing and from Ancor's website.
Never once seen an Ancor brand terminal in aluminum? I mostly use FTZ or AMP, thousands per year, but when I run out I occasionally grab Ancor and they have always been tin plated copper....

Edit: just scraped down yellow, blue & red Ancor nylon insulated ring terminals and all are tin plated copper..
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 18:46   #24
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

In addition to Maine Sail's links and others offered, why not buy a BOOK about boat electrical systems? Golly, folks still trying to learn how to do it via the internet is getting really old. Nigel Calder & Charlie Wing have written very good BOOKS, abd Charlie's was available for a while via scribd. Oh, The WM Advisors also explain it all pretty well, too.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 19:02   #25
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
In addition to Maine Sail's links and others offered, why not buy a BOOK about boat electrical systems? Golly, folks still trying to learn how to do it via the internet is getting really old. Nigel Calder & Charlie Wing have written very good BOOKS, abd Charlie's was available for a while via scribd. Oh, The WM Advisors also explain it all pretty well, too.
For the basics like how to crimp, voltage drop, long established theory books can be good and I have a lot of books. I even have all my old college texts - Physics, Math, Stats etc.

However the day it's printed the book is out of date.

Solar is still fairly new and evolving every day. MPPT controllers, modern boat 3-channel chargers, inverters, battery technology. Oh and a laptop stores great on board as opposed to the 4 bookshelves of books I have - LOL

Also this community is great for bouncing ideas off of - group decisions always make better decisions. Reading a book and not talking to anyone would still give lousy learning and lousy results IMHO.


But if it wasn't for boating and CF the internet would only have one purpose -

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 19:06   #26
Moderator
 
sailorchic34's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Islander 34
Posts: 4,812
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Never once seen an Ancor brand terminal in aluminum? I mostly use FTZ or AMP, thousands per year, but when I run out I occasionally grab Ancor and they have always been tin plated copper....

Edit: just scraped down yellow, blue & red Ancor nylon insulated ring terminals and all are tin plated copper..
For the life of me I can't fine copper on the Yellow and blue ones (non-heat shrink type) that I have. It's possible there are more then two different types of nylon connectors. That is sometimes the case in other trades, (plumbing for example). I'm betting you are not buying your connectors from WM.

Below is a screen shot from Ancors website. While the Heat Shrink type connectors clearly lists tin and copper, the nylon connectors only lists UL486C, which allows aluminum and copper connectors. When I see a manufacturer change the description between similar items, It generally means that there is a material change, they prefer you not know about.

Here is a link to UL486C
Scope for UL 486C

Well I'm wrong about ancor. My yellow connector under white light, does show a dark copper color. I have got to get younger eyes.... The blue spade connector shows a pale yellow color, which indicates a higher zinc content copper. Another off brand Blue ring connector was aluminum.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ancor1.jpg
Views:	72
Size:	67.5 KB
ID:	83483  
__________________
sailorchic34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 20:13   #27
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
site. While the Heat Shrink type connectors clearly lists tin and copper, the nylon connectors only lists UL486C, which allows aluminum and copper connectors. When I see a manufacturer change the description between similar items, It generally means that there is a material change, they prefer you not know about.
Oh great! Another thing for me to obsess over - LOL.

I am ordering all on-line, consolidating the shipment at brother's house and reshipipng.

If tin connectors show up I'll... well... You and MS have given me the heads up. (something I couldn't get from Nigel's book I am sure...) - Copper is definitely the plan.

BTW - Great call in the GFI thread - you rock...
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 20:33   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Tinned copper is what you want. Aluminum is what you don't want.
__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 20:41   #29
Registered User

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Elsewhere on the Water
Posts: 571
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Never once seen an Ancor brand terminal in aluminum? I mostly use FTZ or AMP, thousands per year, but when I run out I occasionally grab Ancor and they have always been tin plated copper....

Edit: just scraped down yellow, blue & red Ancor nylon insulated ring terminals and all are tin plated copper..
I just bought a package of just three heat shrink/adhesive lined yellow butt splices at WM for $5.00. They should be tin plated gold!
__________________
St. Elsewhere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-06-2014, 20:56   #30
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Re: Circuit, Wire, Fuse Size

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Tinned copper is what you want. Aluminum is what you don't want.
Of course - keyboard engaged brain in neutral - happening a lot lately.

I must have onset CRS - (can't remember sh!t)
__________________

__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
size

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Different Wire Sizes In Bilge Pump Circuit cburger Construction, Maintenance & Refit 37 03-02-2012 06:36
Fuse and circuit breaker question gulfstar1 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 15 30-03-2011 05:35
Earth Leak Circuit Breaker Wire Overheating...! raya Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 8 27-05-2010 22:22
Fuse or Circuit Breaker ? ggray Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 5 15-10-2009 16:41
Calculating House Bank DC Fuse size. Pelagic Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 1 28-07-2008 03:05



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:10.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.