Buying a Smartgauge

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

See my post #14:

,,,,testing that has been done UK MoD..

Really, testing? I am doubtful. More likely the individual responsible for the vehicle being brought into service made a laudable attempt to do something about the problem of the vehicle battery banks being continually run flat by putting an SG in full view of the crew. However, the crew didn't pay for the SG, they haven't read the SG manual and won't be paying for the replacement batteries if they fail prematurely. No one really tracks the battery life and since each vehicle is used differently who knows what is acceptable. A minority may have some idea, but are they going to change their behaviours or task to take into account the need for additional charging? no.

I cringe looking back at the "fit for radio" (FFR) I operated in the early 1980s. There was an ammeter on the 24v large frame alternator but it quickly dropped from 50 amps to a low reading so pretty much ignored apart from showing the alternator was working. The main clue came from the HF radio which would start to hiss white noise when the batteries got down to 11 volts or so which would then mean starting the engine for a couple of hours at tickover. There was a hand throttle fitted to raise the revs separately from the peddle but it was noisy running hour after hour so not used much. Surprisingly vehicles often needed the batteries changing I say changing rather than replacing because new batteries were expensive so the old ones had the acid drained out and poured down the drain before being refilled and give a huge charge for some days which would raise the specific gravity enough for them to be declared fit to be installed back in a vehicle.

If you want to know who really knows about looking after batteries and getting the best bang for buck, well they are on sailing forums like CF. Carrying half a dozen large batteries ashore and paying for their replacement before carrying the new ones back isn't something that is quickly forgotten by the wallet or the arm muscles.

However, our Defence organisations knowledge well not so much. The days of people testing stuff to ensure fit for purpose, well that level of engineering ended in the late 1980s as the cut backs started to bite.

Pete

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Rich Boren at Cruise RO.

I only know their watermaker and holding plate fridge stuff, didn't know they did alt/genny gear too

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I only know their watermaker and holding plate fridge stuff, didn't know they did alt/genny gear too

He is I guess the name is a distributor for Sterling chargers, Mark Grasser “stuff” and Balmar serpentine belt kits and other gear as well I’m sure.
Anyway he gave me the best price and the service you have to experience to believe, I have called him once on Memorial day weekend and had him answer, and nobody does that, but it saved our big once a year vacation.

[john61ct]

Good to know, well-rounded product line, one-stop shop for all your utilities

[john61ct]

Recent decades have seen electronics become critical to survival in the field, your battle gear running out of juice is just not an option these days.

Enersys gets a huge chunk of their income from military as well, and that's where a lot of LFP R&D funding's coming from.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I forgot specific gravity -- does no one take SG of their batteries anymore? I always used this to check whatever method I was using. And I used to log it along with adjustments to absorption time, although that's fallen by the wayside a bit.

Here is what Rolls say about it:

[I]"The most accurate and direct way to test the state of charge of a battery cell is to determine the specific gravity of the battery electrolyte. The higher the specific gravity of the electrolyte the higher the state of charge. The best way to truly monitor your system over it lifetime is to regularly take and record specific gravity readings."

"t is recommended that a specific gravity reading of one pilot cell is measured and recorded on a regular basis when it is thought that the bank is fully charged. The measurement should be compared to previous readings. If the measurement is lower than the previous reading a longer absorption time and higher voltage setting should be used. . . . Note: the specific gravity should rise as the cells use water. Look for trends in the specific gravity over a period of time and make very small adjustments as necessary."

http://support.rollsbattery.com/supp...n-instructions


Ever since I started out in this sport, that was always the way I determined whether the battery charger was doing its job correctly or not. And note well -- you can't sit on your laurels, because your batteries change over time. The absorption time needs to be in correct adjustment -- too much and you can boil the batteries out or corrode the cathode plates (or is it anodes -- I forget); too little and they never get full and sulphate.

And obviously the absorption voltage needs to be right -- voltage AT THE BATTERY, not at the charger output, and CORRECTED FOR TEMPERATURE. But once you get this right, you don't usually need to fiddle with it much more.


In my opinion, once you have good charging equipment, well set up, and kept in adjustment, then it's not necessary to carefully monitor SOC. You should try not to get below 50% too often (and voltage reading or SG is fine for this) and you should be sure to get a really good full charge on a regular basis, and equalize as needed, and that's all there is to it. In my humble etc.

Yes! Currently have sealed batteries (come with the boat). Previous boat had 6v trojans. Used hydrometer regularly, had solar regulator float switched off unless leaving the boat for extended period with fridge etc off, never discharged below 60%, checked voltage at dawn (when I get up), they were still going after many years when I sold boat, easy, simple, effective.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I bought a Mark Grasser alt, serpentine belt kit and Marks reprogrammed regulator from Rich Boren at Cruise RO. Now for the money it’s outstanding, is three stage and does sense battery bank temp and alternator temp, but it’s not programmable like the Balmar 614 is, but at a much higher price.
I think his alternator is at least as good as Balmar’s though, I’d rather have a Mark Grasser alternator.

Yes but you no longer use the smart reg? The alternator is good but the reg sucks as it's to temperature sensitive compared to the balmar, I've had both.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Yes but you no longer use the smart reg? The alternator is good but the reg sucks as it's to temperature sensitive compared to the balmar, I've had both.

No, put it in spares and went with the Balmar 614 for its programmability.
It was too conservative, but was in a way OK for me as I don’t intend my engine to be a primary charge source.
He is supposed to be coming out with a regulator that will rival the Balmar

[john61ct]

The MC-614 is great for LFP, next step would be an option, when hitting an "endVolts" setpoint, cut off charging the bank completely, rather than Floating.

Or two outputs the main / LFP cuts off, the second output continues to the lead bank / Starter batt(s).

Would save a lot of complexity using external relays. . .

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

No, put it in spares and went with the Balmar 614 for its programmability.
It was too conservative, but was in a way OK for me as I don’t intend my engine to be a primary charge source.
He is supposed to be coming out with a regulator that will rival the Balmar

Day cruising it's fine as I also don't use the engine to charge, but during multiple day passages this year (some 10-13days) with little sun, it was extremely frustrating.
The only time I need the engine to recharge is during long passages, I'm looking at an alternative.

[a64pilot]

Primary for me is Solar, secondary the generator.
Balmar 614 is a good piece of kit, but a good shorepower Charger is superior in my opinion.
However now with an AC watermaker, I can also make water if we are motoring off of the inverter and the alternator has enough oomph to keep the batteries up, saves running the generator.
However it doesn’t bother me a bit when sailing to crank the engine and bump it to 1200 RPM or so to charge, and with the Autoprop I get some drive off of it to. It when I’m motoring and engine is above 1500 RPM or so that it bothers me, just too loud.
I say I have a love hate relationship with my engine. I love how reliable and dependable it is, just hate running the thing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Primary for me is Solar, secondary the generator.
Balmar 614 is a good piece of kit, but a good shorepower Charger is superior in my opinion.
However now with an AC watermaker, I can also make water if we are motoring off of the inverter and the alternator has enough oomph to keep the batteries up, saves running the generator.
However it doesn’t bother me a bit when sailing to crank the engine and bump it to 1200 RPM or so to charge, and with the Autoprop I get some drive off of it to. It when I’m motoring and engine is above 1500 RPM or so that it bothers me, just too loud.
I say I have a love hate relationship with my engine. I love how reliable and dependable it is, just hate running the thing.

Why, is it noisy in your boat?

I love to sail (kind of the point), and keep the motor off as much as I can, but I love my diesel engine too. Love the way it sounds (I only don't love the way it smokes). Doesn't bother me at all to use it -- I love diesel engines and machinery, and I just become a motor boat when needed.

I guess how you feel about this will influence a lot how you feel about using an alternator to charge. But love 'em or hate 'em, everyone but the Pardeys and maybe a very small number of small cruisers who mostly use their motors to get in and out of port, almost all of us motor roughly as much as we sail, in terms of miles done, and many of us motor more miles than we sail.

So the alternator can be a really useful charge source, and on many boats might be the main one. It really pays to have a proper large frame alternator designed specifically for bulk power production, if you can fit it. On passage, with the Autoprop, if you're not heeling too much, say in calm weather, you can put on the main engine at low speed, and pick up a knot or two of boat speed, and charge at the same time. This is really handy. A couple of hours at 25%C will get you from 50% to 90% just like that, and you're good for another day or so of sailing, on my boat anyway -- on my boat it's faster than using the generator and battery charger (which at 70 amps is about 17%C). Do energy intensive chores at the same time, make some hot water, do some electric cooking, etc. I can even run my washer/dryer off my alternator -- and I traditionally run a load or two when I doing the Kiel Canal where it is forbidden to shut down the engine.

[sailinglegend]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Really, testing? I am doubtful. More likely the individual responsible for the vehicle being brought into service made a laudable attempt to do something about the problem of the vehicle battery banks being continually run flat by putting an SG in full view of the crew.

I wondered when someone would come up with a suggestion that the MOD are not the best people to test new kit, or that the crews are not the sharpest tools in the box. Yes there has been many reports of military incompetence on both sides of the pond.

Let me add more factual feedback on this.

It was the military who demanded a better battery monitor than the shunt based ones they were using. They were too complicated, too difficult in instal properly, and too likely to be programmed wrong, and too difficult to understand.

The SmartGauge was the smart answer - simple to install and maintain contacts and cables, and simple to read - especially for MOD crew or inexperienced boat crew! The problem of a battery failing on a vehicle was bad enough, but replacing it in the field was more than 10 time the costs of just the battery.

The standard Smartguage proved to be so good that Merlin Equipment in the UK bought the company - and Chris Gibson - and it is now being very successfully used in their hugely expanding Military market. They have recently used the SG technology as the focal point of their Data Cell 11 battery monitoring system in the M1 Abrams tank and the M3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle, claiming an accuracy of around 1%. Neither Merlin nor Balmar use these contracts in any form of “Marketing Hype”!!!!!! It's interesting note that the SG reading has been changed so to read useable capacity from 0-100% - 0% meaning the batteries are at around 12.12volts and need charging. Keep it simple for the crew! It would appear they also use shunt based monitoring which helps tell them the battery capacity - battery State of Health - when compared to the Smartgauge. Now you know in advance when to change the battery.

One excellent feature about any good Battery Monitor is the high/low alarms for Ah count or battery volts. Twice in the last 13 years faults have driven up our battery charging to 15.5v but the alarm saved the very expensive battery bank. You don’t get alarms with a $10 digital battery monitor!!!!

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So the alternator can be a really useful charge source, and on many boats might be the main one. It really pays to have a proper large frame alternator designed specifically for bulk power production, if you can fit it.

Maybe worth noting that it might not be that great, don't think I've ever seen anything like full output after going for the upgrade 110A option when fitting a new engine. Then I try not to go too low SOC on the batts.

This is based around AGM, might be worse for lead acid as they don't accept such high charge as AGM I think -
How Fast Can an AGM Battery Be Charged..? Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

12 minutes gained with twice the power.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

You don’t get alarms with a digital battery voltmeter!!!!

Sort of relevant - if anyone is interested, with very little programming you can get a very accurate 4 channel volt meter using a raspberry pi & ads1115 sensor, record voltage, send emails/tweets/MQTT if on the web, alarms, display on any device which can view a web page , does lots & lots more as well.
Pi is £35, sensor about a fiver, extremely useful for keeping an eye on your batteries for a little cash and not too much setup, draws about 0.3A % 12v. A monitor is handy for initial loading of the operating system then works with any laptop/tablet/smartphone over it's own wifi.