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Old 16-04-2018, 13:02   #61
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Sounds like "Bought cheap, paid dearly".



When you deal with an unknown vendor and apparently no warranty or knowledge of whether there are statutory warranties, you're shooting craps.



When a vendor of technical products makes a curious and contrary warning, like the red one about not wiring in normal ways, that's a red flag that there is something wrong about this product.



All in all...



Sounds like someone ignored all the warning signs and threw their money away.



Don't complain here, go find out what your local warranty regulations are, whether you voided them, and whether you can enforce them against the vendor.



And next time, if you can't afford a quality product from a reputable source, don't take out your wallet.


I do not agree, issues such as this should be discussed on this forum we may gain from the information. If one is a witness to an injustice, one should try and help. How do you determine a reputable source, anybody who bought a VW a couple of years ago thought that was a reputable source. OR shares in Lehmann Brothers. OR CBA. OR ........
In Oz the buyer is warranted by consumer law.
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Old 16-04-2018, 13:08   #62
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Every marine electrical system is just waiting for someone to let the magic smoke out. AC or DC matters not.

Installing a solar charging system (or performing brain surgery, or rocket science, or any activity for that matter) CORRECTLY is only simple for the people who really do know what they are doing.

About 10% of the folks who think they know what they are doing, actually do know what they are doing.

I have seen several boats burned, marina docks and fuel pumps damaged, and people hurt by incorrect marine electrical wiring.

Of the marine electrical systems I inspect, that have been modified by non-certified people, only about 10% are completed in compliance with marine standards, and at least 10% are patently unsafe (1 easily plausible condition, yet to be encountered, away from burning).

To put it in reality, 1 in 10 could catch fire any moment.

This is not an exaggeration; just because somebody has connected something to their boat, and it seems to work, does not necessarily constitute a correct and safe installation. Not by a long shot.

Most non pro installations place the owner, crew, family, and marina at unnecessary risk.

I know this because I inspect, consult, design, build, troubleshoot, repair, and install marine electrical systems, professionally.

Ask any honest, association certified, marine surveyor, how safe the average boat electrical system is?

You'll be shocked. (Har)

And yet every DIYer insists their boat is safe.

I start out my marine electrical system seminars like this:

"1. Show of hands, how many boaters here perform their own boat electrical system maintenance, repairs, and new installations."

(Typically about 50% of the audience hands go up, but I know it is more like 90%.)

"2. Show of hands, How many believe the work they have done is safe?"

(Typically all the hands stay up.)

"3. Show of hands, How many will invite me to inspect you boat's electrical system, free of charge if no issue found, $200 if I find one issue that is unsafe and needlessly risks "critical to safety" equipment failure or fire?"

(Typically all the hands go down).

4. Then I present all of the common wiring deficiencies I encounter and what can happen as a result.

5. After the seminar, about 10% walk up, hand me $200 and schedule an appointment. Until now they didn't know their boat was unsafe.

There is likely another 80% of the audience who has an unsafe boat but is not willing to spend $200 to find out.

That's right, not willing to spend $200 to help ensure their boat won't burn to the waterline tomorrow and possibly kill someone.

I would lose my shirt on these inspections, which generally consume about $500 in billable hours each, if I didn't make it back on the repairs I'm hired to perform following.

To date, the best report I have prepared had 3 faults, each of which could result in fire, explosion or electrocution. 2 were related to the AC system and 1 to the DC system.

In summary, one doesn't know what they don't know until they do and approximately 90% of boaters are in a state of blissful ignorance that their boat electrical system is safe and reliable.

I recommend:

1. Every boater learn as much as they can about their electrical system and be capable of performing emergency repairs.

2. After doing so, have these repairs inspected by a marine electrical professional at the earliest convenience.

As part of our "Boating Community Service Program", if I'm walking through a yard on other business, and someone asks me to look at something, 15 minutes is free.

If I can't ascertain it is safe and reliable within 15 minutes (which usually means it isn't), I recommend a thorough electrical system inspection (at my normal hourly rate). If they decline, they only have themselves to blame.


I agree with what you say, nonetheless i believe that 72% of people make up their own statistics

Happy Days Sailing
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Old 16-04-2018, 13:28   #63
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guyrj33 View Post
Rod;
A true professional would either offer a better explanation or admit to making a mistake.
V volts
R resistance
I current
P power

V=R*I
P= V*I = I(2)*R

1 amp x 120 volts will supply 10 times the power as 1 amp x 12 volts.
No mistake.

My statements were 100% accurate.

Your statements above are also accurate except that...

i) E = Electro-motive force in Volts,

and more importantly that...

ii) P = E*I = I^2/R

I digress, these level of details are not necessary to make the point that...

Both 120 Vac and 12 Vdc electrical system wiring faults can and do burn boats and hurt people, and that it is not safe for those who are insufficiently knowledgeable or skilled, to mess with either.
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Old 16-04-2018, 16:30   #64
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
No mistake.

My statements were 100% accurate.

Your statements above are also accurate except that...

i) E = Electro-motive force in Volts,

and more importantly that...

ii) P = E*I = I^2/R

I digress, these level of details are not necessary to make the point that...

Both 120 Vac and 12 Vdc electrical system wiring faults can and do burn boats and hurt people, and that it is not safe for those who are insufficiently knowledgeable or skilled, to mess with either.
Allow me to add my $0.02...

Once a DC circuit creates an arc, the arc can be maintained. The constant flow of electrons ionizes the adjacent air, creating a conductive path. An AC arc is difficult to maintain because the voltage crosses through 0 volts at a rate twice the AC frequency which effectively extinguishes the arc as the voltage passes through the zero point.

This makes DC inherently more dangerous from the perspective of starting unintentional fires. AC, on the other hand, due to it's higher (as a mains supply) and constantly varying voltage is the more dangerous from the perspective of being electrocuted.
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Old 16-04-2018, 21:44   #65
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
........

The thought that it is "safe" for someone insufficiently knowledgeable and skilled to modify marine electrical wiring is clearly false.
I doubt if any reader disagrees with this statement however your previous position was (as I understand it) that one had to be a "marine certified well experienced technician" to be sufficiently knowledgeable and skilled to modify marine electrical wiring. I completely disagree with that proposition. There are many boat owners who do have sufficient knowledge to perform electrical work on their vessels and do so in a safe manner. Of course there are also many who don't.

As to the statement that 90% of boats would't comply with the standards required in your part of the world could well be true, I not there so I can't comment.

However, noncompliance with a standard does not automatically make a circuit unsafe. Sure it is a good thing to comply and standards have a place in the mix of things and if I paying someone to carry out work on my boat, I would expect them to comply with any required standard. Standards are useful to protect professional as much as they are to protect the customer.

I'm sure if you looked at my own wiring in my boat, you could find some noncompliance with some standard but I guarantee it would be both minor and not unsafe. And there are many others more capable than me carrying out their own electrical work.

As a simple example, I'm licensed to install cabling in houses, helicopters and oil/gas installations. Each one has a different standard (rightly so) but if I show someone how to install some cabling in their boat, it will be safe regardless of what you may consider is safe.
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Old 16-04-2018, 23:24   #66
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

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Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
...however your previous position was (as I understand it) that one had to be a "marine certified well experienced technician" to be sufficiently knowledgeable and skilled to modify marine electrical wiring.
I never stated that.

Quote:
As to the statement that 90% of boats would't comply with the standards required in your part of the world could well be true, I not there so I can't comment.
I never stated that.

Quote:
However, noncompliance with a standard does not automatically make a circuit unsafe.
I never stated that.
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Old 17-04-2018, 00:24   #67
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

What was this thread about ?
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Old 17-04-2018, 02:14   #68
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

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What was this thread about ?
A disgruntled EBay buyer, but we've never heard back from him and it's probably time to put tis thread to bed.
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Old 17-04-2018, 02:24   #69
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

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Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
I never stated that.
OK, I misunderstood, my bad


I never stated that.
Really...


I never stated that.
No, I made that statement
..........
StuM is probably right ^^.
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Old 17-04-2018, 02:33   #70
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

No! you are all wrong and i'm right, agree or move on!
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Old 17-04-2018, 04:55   #71
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

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Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Allow me to add my $0.02...

Once a DC circuit creates an arc, the arc can be maintained. The constant flow of electrons ionizes the adjacent air, creating a conductive path. An AC arc is difficult to maintain because the voltage crosses through 0 volts at a rate twice the AC frequency which effectively extinguishes the arc as the voltage passes through the zero point.

This makes DC inherently more dangerous from the perspective of starting unintentional fires. AC, on the other hand, due to it's higher (as a mains supply) and constantly varying voltage is the more dangerous from the perspective of being electrocuted.
OK, now some even more thread drift; here is an old discussion about why a decent arc cannot be created with 12 Vdc. Hint, first you have to bump the 12 V into something like 10 to 30 KV - easy enough to do of course.

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Old 17-04-2018, 08:07   #72
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

Rather than relying on a mod to put it out of its misery,

let's all just refrain from posting to it any further, and it will sink into oblivion on its own
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Old 17-04-2018, 08:28   #73
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Re: Buyer Beware, Not a fair eBay seller.

Guys.

Y'awl reinforced my conviction that differences of opinion can arise at any time and any place..

Im closing the thread. Should you feel you want to beat the horse to death some more, please contact a mod and he will raise the matter with the mod squad...

Besties...
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