Boiling and gassing batteries (with video)

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by sleaper

Hello everyone and firstly thank you for being so welcoming.

Couple of questions answered to better paint the picture.

1. This is my house battery bank - It is used with 3 victron inverters/chargers to provide 24 through to 400 volts (3 phase)
2. It is charged using a 10KVA northen lights genset / which also tops up the power when 400 volts is required (3 phase)
3. The batteries are manufactured by Hawker. If anyone is interested, this is their service manual which I have digested slowely.
http://www.industrialpowerproducts.c...e%20Manual.pdf
4. Yes, I have contacted the manufacturer, who have specified that the batteries are using the correct charge voltages for the absorbtion and float stages.
5. Yes, the batteries were balanced correctly by the supplier and manufacturer before delivery.
6. We have not altered the battery charging voltages to take into account the temperature.
7. bonus note, the first few charges saw battery temp readings of up to 60 degrees C. The manufacturer was happy with that and not the least concerned.

.

.

Thanks for including the Hawker manual. I haven't finished it, but so far it makes a very interesting read. The person who told you 60 C was not a problem hasn't read the manual. See page 6 on 'thermal runaway' and page 16 on 'the 10 commandments of good battery care'.

[Cadence]

I hadn't read all of the replies. If the batteries were replace for a similar problem, the batteries are being fried by lack of voltage regulation. I would look at the generator regulation if I read your original post correctly

[donradcliffe]

At this point my best guess is the root of the problem is:

Are the batteries in the engine spaces, and what is the ambient temperature around the batteries when the engines are running?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

At this point my best guess is the root of the problem is:

Are the batteries in the engine spaces, and what is the ambient temperature around the batteries when the engines are running?

I oiled as a kid. Only one battery for the 4 71 generator, the main was pneumatic start, 106F was not problem. So I doubt it is heat related. JMWAO.

[sleaper]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

See my post #7, which did not get answered, but I think that the only charging sources are coming from the genset.

Yes, Sorry DON.

The only charger is the 10kva Northen Lights Genset. The engines do not have alternators.

[sleaper]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

At this point my best guess is the root of the problem is:

Are the batteries in the engine spaces, and what is the ambient temperature around the batteries when the engines are running?

Hi Don,

The batteries are 2 rooms separated from the engine room.

We are lucky enough to have a walk around engine room, walk around generator room, then a walk around workshop in that order. So 3 rooms divided. The engine room also has some giant cooling fans. It does get warmer, but I am sure the temp of the room does not rise too much.

[Jetx]

Originally Posted by sleaper

4. My reference to this does not happen when we are not underway refers to not having the engines running. So, being at anchor with the genset running but not "ship systems".

So batteries are only boiling, and inverters apparently sticking in absorption, when main engines are running?

If so, and if engine alternators are also connected to the house bank, then possibly the voltage regulator for the alternator(s) is set too high.

Or another possibility, if batteries are in close proximity to the engines, might be that engine heat is warming up the batteries. The non-temp-compensated charging voltages could be OK when main engines aren't running and batteries are cool, but too high once engines have run for a while and warmed up the batteries.

Edit: Apologies, posted without updating the thread, and now see these were covered earlier.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by sleaper

Hi Don,

The batteries are 2 rooms separated from the engine room.

We are lucky enough to have a walk around engine room, walk around generator room, then a walk around workshop in that order. So 3 rooms divided. The engine room also has some giant cooling fans. It does get warmer, but I am sure the temp of the room does not rise too much.

Hello and welcome, sleaper!

If you can hear the batts bubbling they are producing hydrogen and oxygen. Maybe you already have hydrocaps, which recombine the gases to water?

If so, you should be safe, if not, I would check the water level quite regularly and also make sure you have very good ventilation in the batt room as well, not just the engine room.

57C still sounds awfully hot for a batt.

[kenbo]

Maybe I missed something but the genset isn't charging the batteries, but supplying power to the Victron inverter/charger.

Sometimes keeping things simple can lead to the solution. The video showed 56C so too much improperly regulated power is being supplied to the bank. Stay focused on the Victron chargers. Temp compensation, settings and possibly resistance in the multiple interconnections.

[sleaper]

Ok team,

Received my mk3 usb adapter to interface with the victron inverters today.

It seems no battery profile was selected so the absorption voltage was standard as per the victron default settings which was 29.4v absorption voltage and 27.6 float.

I have now changed the inverters/chargers to wet deep cycle lead plate batterie profile - which lowered the absorption voltage to 28.8v (which corresponds to the manufacturers specifications for the battery and what I thought was set) and float to 27.4v

I am out of the water at the moment on shore power, but will be sure to report back and let you all know what I find when we get wet again.

[sleaper]

Hello everyone,

Today we splashed again after our haul out. The great news is, for the first time I have witnessed the inverters went through the charging cycle, absorption and then into float successfully at the correct voltages.

No overheating, no hissing, no boiling, we even had the gas detector on board and no nasties.

So all in all - very happy with the resolution steps we took to change the voltages.

Will update if anything changes.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by sleaper

Hello everyone,

Today we splashed again after our haul out. The great news is, for the first time I have witnessed the inverters went through the charging cycle, absorption and then into float successfully at the correct voltages.

No overheating, no hissing, no boiling, we even had the gas detector on board and no nasties.

So all in all - very happy with the resolution steps we took to change the voltages.

Will update if anything changes.

Strange that you had 60 degrees, there must have been something wrong or unbalanced. Ive never seen anything like that and would be very worried.... are you sure the measure was not wrong?? If my batteries were at 60 degrees I think I would not be able to be on the boat for stink and explosion risk... the water would be gone in hours!!!

Well, I have those same batteries and I charge mine at 29.6v and they float at 27 and every few weeks I switch everything off and charge them at 30.5volts.

Mine bubble and use alot of water and I have a watering system installed because I am too lazy to fiddle around. All forktrucks have a watering system and these are made for forktrucks, use the same on yours. This way you don't have to check the individual cells.

I don't care about bubbling and overcharging as I know that 29.6v is the max unless I'm doing a 30.5v equalise.
I do care about not having enough water and going over 50% discharge.

[sleaper]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Strange that you had 60 degrees, there must have been something wrong or unbalanced. Ive never seen anything like that and would be very worried.... are you sure the measure was not wrong?? If my batteries were at 60 degrees I think I would not be able to be on the boat for stink and explosion risk... the water would be gone in hours!!!

Well, I have those same batteries and I charge mine at 29.6v and they float at 27 and every few weeks I switch everything off and charge them at 30.5volts.

Mine bubble and use alot of water and I have a watering system installed because I am too lazy to fiddle around. All forktrucks have a watering system and these are made for forktrucks, use the same on yours. This way you don't have to check the individual cells.

I don't care about bubbling and overcharging as I know that 29.6v is the max unless I'm doing a 30.5v equalise.
I do care about not having enough water and going over 50% discharge.

Thanks for the response. Great to meet someone with the same batteries.

Can I ask a couple questions:

1. Do you know what temp your batteries get to?
2. Do they bubble like in the video?
3. Do they gas off a lot .. can you smell it ?
4. What is your ventilation setup?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by sleaper

Thanks for the response. Great to meet someone with the same batteries.

Can I ask a couple questions:

1. Do you know what temp your batteries get to?
2. Do they bubble like in the video?
3. Do they gas off a lot .. can you smell it ?
4. What is your ventilation setup?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

They are the same type but not the exact size. 600ah 5pzs hawker fork truck.
I watched the video.
I'm not sure of the temperature, they go warm to the touch.
It's hard to tell the amount of bubbling in the video but mine bubble.
Yes they give off gas that you can smell.
I have a small fan that blows air over them so gas cannot build up.

are you really sure you are not going over 29.6v?, check with another multimeter maybe.
Also, check the first cell is 2.1v, then the 2nd makes 4.2v, the 3rd 6.3v etc to be sure all is installed correctly.
Something is wrong as they should handle 29.6v.
after bulk charge of 29.6, you should at some stage see something like 27 .... do you ever see this or does it stay high all the time?

I didn't read all the posts but you wrote that they are no longer bubbling, this is maybe not ok as they should bubble a bit.

I see you wrote absorbtion is now 28.8 and float 27.4, I would still expect some bubbling at this voltage and I would stick with this 28.8v absorbtion until you know what is going on.

i would suggest getting an expert to look as its still not ok I think.

[tanglewood]

Glad you got the voltage setting sorted, but still appears you have no temp sensing and charge voltage compensation. With batteries running that hot, you MUST be sure that's working. There is a temp sensor that you need to install that connects to the Victrons - actually only one of them. The charge voltage will then automatically be adjusted based on the measured battery temp. You will trash the batteries if you don't do it.