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rgleason · 25-07-2018, 12:49

Quote:

The best feature of a combiner is that it never forgets to parallel when charging is present or isolate/disconnect the banks when a charge source is not present. When the batteries are not seeing a charge source they are fully isolated or disconnected from one another.

Ok, what happens if the House Bank dies completely? Dead.
1. Turn 1both2 to Reserve #2.
2. Start Engine.
3. Because the Regulator Voltage sensing + is wired direct to House + post, and the alternator is not producing power.
4. So you stop the engine and relocate the Regulator + wire to some location that is has power, perhaps the Reserve + post.
5. Start the engine again and the charger begins to charge the Dead House Battery, but the battery is totally dead, so there is a huge load on the alternator initially and there is a lot of rubber lost and smells of electrical things frying. If the voltage happens to rise to 13.6 the ACR Combiner kicks in and you're charging the reserve battery too. The rubber and electric smell gets worse. This isn't too good. So you shut the engine off to think about it, and just sail.
6. Next you ask your mate to take the wheel again, reach into the toolbox and open lockers and the engine room to make one more change to move the AO back up to the "C" post on the 3way switch or perhaps over to the + busbar for the Reserve battery, but that's a long way from the House bank, so you cobble together several spare cables you just happened to have that might be adequate, after thinking about the effort to pull the batteries and switch them.
7. Let's say you successfully relocate the AO to the Reserve + post.
8. Get the engine started, the battery is 95%soc and voltage goes right up past 13.6 and the ACR Combiner does what it does, rubber and electrical smells occur. You shut off the engine again.
9. Then you decide you don't want the ACR Combiner to do it's job anymore.

Is there a switch for turning off the ACR and how should this situation be handled so that we don't have to relocate the Reg Voltage sense wire and the Alternator Output wires?

PS:I suppose if you are close to harbor you could just limp back without charging any battery.
On second thought the Balmar Regulator can be dialed back in various ways belt manager, program lower voltage for bulk, etc so you won't smell rubber.

I had another question about On-Off Switchs with AFD (alternator field disconnects) which I was considering for the Emergency Battery Switch and the Alternator Service Switch.

Does leading the Regulator Voltage Sensor wire to these two devices result in a voltage drop? If so, the alternator could actually be overcharging the batteries. For example, Bulk charging up to 14.8v. The voltage sense lead actually reads 14.4v at the Regulator after going through two voltage drops. So the Regulator will attempt to bring the voltage up to 15.2v at the battery.
What do you do about that?

Preventing Cycling in the Combiner

I am sure you guys all discussed this earlier, but I don't find it.

dfelsent · 25-07-2018, 13:04

Sounds like it was a fun day.

I used to have an ACR Combiner on a previous boat. I ended up replacing it with an echo charge, I don't recall exactly why. I think because it was a current limited gentler charge with a time delay.

I always left my engine starter connected to the dedicated start (#2) battery.
I had a switch that would tie house to start. This was used in the event that the start battery died.

The alternator was tied to the house bank.

In your scenario(If I read it correctly)
1: No need to turn the switch
2: Start Engine
3: If I understand correctly the alternator excitation wasn't enough to kick off charging.
4. I might try the same, or tie house to start for a moment to kick the alternator
5:I used to have to set the max load Belt setting?) on my Balmar regulator to less than 100% to avoid exactly this rubber and frying situation.
I also was careful about belt tension, belt style, and alignment.

I think #5 here is the key.
Your charging system should be able to charge a dead house bank without frying itself.

I sympathize with your pain though.

Stu Jackson · 25-07-2018, 13:59

rg,

Perhaps in this one:

Alternators & Voltage Sensing (by Maine Sail):Alternators & Voltage Sensing - Why It's Important Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Stu Jackson · 25-07-2018, 16:58

rg, among others is this discussion I had with MS a few years ago:

Overcharging with Combiners or ACRs The MYTH:
Overcharging Batteries with a Combiner or ACR

It doesn't discuss your issue particularly, just that I do have a shutoff for my combiner which I now rarely use. This ^^^ explains why.

In your case, I'd just isolate the bad battery in the bank and use the remaining house bank with the ACR. If the whole house bank is gone, your charging system is gonna go tits up anyway. I'd simply shut off the regulator so the alternator isn't being "told" to put out. That's why proper switching makes the use of LIMITED house loads on the start bank, either with three switches or a 1-2-B a breeze: no rewiring under stress.

I'm sure if you pm'd MS he'd either chime in here and/or tell you his thoughts, which would be nice to share.

rgleason · 25-07-2018, 17:30

Thanks Stu, read that again for the 2 or 3 time.

Found something about the Emergency and Alternator Service Switches with possible Automatic Field Disconnect AFD.
Mainesail wrote:
"NOTE: The Balmar ARS-5 and Xantrex XAR regulators do not have a dedicated positive volt sensing lead. On these models voltage sensing is done between regulator B+ (red) and regulator B- (black). If these wire runs are extended to the battery bank care must be taken to account for the voltage drop in the red wire which can carry as much as 6A +/- to drive the field current. For the best performance you'll want voltage drop in the regulator B+ wire to be as close to zero as possible. If you've not already purchased a regulator, then consider the Balmar MC-614..

A voltage sensing circuit is a circuit intended to carry minimal to no current so there is minimal voltage drop in this measurement circuit. The voltage sensing circuit should really be considered a voltage correction circuit or a voltage drop compensation circuit."

I have a ARS-5 Regulator, so I don't think using switches with AFD is a good idea. With a MC-614, then maybe. An alternative is a lockable switch...or just be smart about those two switches which might cause loss of alternator diodes if turned off when engine is running.

defelsant:
My post about this was just a thought process, it did not really happen, sorry if there was any confusion, but I think all or parts of it could happpen. Has anyone else had experience with a dead house battery, when using a Battery Combiner or Relay with Regulator Voltage Sense wire and Alternator output attached to House + post?

rgleason · 25-07-2018, 17:56

Quote:

Ok, what happens if the House Bank dies completely? Dead.

After a little reflection these are the steps I'll take.
1. Pull the ACR Combiner + fuse, to prevent it from working.
2. Unbolt the Alternator wire and connect it to "C" of 1both2 switch.
3. Turn the Battery Sw to Reserve.

smac999 · 26-07-2018, 01:43

i'm not sure what your question is.

the alternator pos post and the external reg + sense wire must go to the same bank. period. otherwise if the acr is off, or before it combines, you may get crazy voltages on one bank.

the external reg power and ign feed come from the battery that starts the engine.

if the alt feeds to the house bank. the ext reg will start up from starter battery, see 0v sense, and start bulk charging the house. after couple hours the acr will kick on and start charging engine batt. this is the best setup with an ext reg and acr. no wires ever move

if the alt goes to the start battery. and if the house is under 6v or 9v (depending on ACR year made) the LED flashes and it will not engage, and the house will never charge. you'd have to manually parallel.

if you have an old external reg that does not have separate wires for the power and the voltage sense. then you are stuck running the alt feed to the engine battery with the reg power wire. to avoid problems. and have to manually combine to the house if dead and the acr is flashing

or buy a better ext reg and connect the first way

smac999 · 26-07-2018, 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgleason

I have a ARS-5 Regulator,

throw it out and buy a mc 614 with seperate power wire and voltage sense wire. the power wire goes to the start battery, the voltage sense and alt pos feed go to the house battery. all your problems are solved.

Dulcesuenos · 26-07-2018, 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgleason

After a little reflection these are the steps I'll take.
1. Pull the ACR Combiner + fuse, to prevent it from working.
2. Unbolt the Alternator wire and connect it to "C" of 1both2 switch.
3. Turn the Battery Sw to Reserve.

Your ACR has a "+" fuse ( I'm understanding that as on the positive wire?? I just read the direction on one and it shows a fuse on the ground only could you elaborate on what your fuse is hooked to?

Sailmonkey · 26-07-2018, 04:31

I think you’re worrying a lot about a mythical scenario.

How did your batteries get so low to the point that the regulator can’t begin to charge?

Why don’t you already have an alternator current limit set that prevents the burning of rubber?

Maine Sail · 26-07-2018, 05:07

“What if” a meteorite hits you?

Seriously switch to #2/reserve, start motor, now quickly switch back to #1 while not passing through OFF... Done..

rgleason · 26-07-2018, 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

“What if” a meteorite hits you?
Seriously switch to #2/reserve, start motor, now quickly switch back to #1 while not passing through OFF... Done..

Thanks. Still learning. Never had one of these devices...that is certainly easier.

From Stu's Overcharging Batteries with a Combiner or ACR

Quote:

I do have a switch in the neg leg of my ACR. I use it to turn off the ACR so I am not burning amps in "combined" mode when charging off solar and so all the current can flow to my house bank without any "phantom loads".

I will be installing a Sterling ProLatch R soon, which is an ACR with near zero draw when combined, and a very, very low standby current. Once I get to that I won't need the switch in the neg leg...

How do you like the ProLatch? Since I have not purchased ACR Combiner yet, this was an option I was considering. See Useful 12vdc Devices thread StirlingProLatch-R Combing Relay vs BS SI ACR Combiner

smac999 · 26-07-2018, 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Your ACR has a "+" fuse ( I'm understanding that as on the positive wire?? I just read the direction on one and it shows a fuse on the ground only could you elaborate on what your fuse is hooked to?

Every pos wire on the boat needs a fuse. Acr diagram definatly shows fuses on both pos wires.

Maine Sail · 26-07-2018, 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by smac999

throw it out and buy a mc 614 with seperate power wire and voltage sense wire. the power wire goes to the start battery, the voltage sense and alt pos feed go to the house battery. all your problems are solved.

To add a service disconnect switch with an ARS-5 you just use a Blue Sea 9004e ON/OFF battery switch with AFD (alternator field disconnect).

The regulator B+, (red wire in the Ford plug) just goes through the AFD circuit on its way to the house bank and Alternator B+ goes through the switches large studs. The 9004e obviously costs more than the mSeries 6006 that you can use with the MC-614 as a service disconnect.

They do not make the mSeries battery switches with AFD wipes in them. Obviously if you are choosing which regulator to buy then the MC-614H is the best value, if you want a service disconnect, but if you already have an ARS series regulator then the 9004e switch will work as a service disconnect and not allow the reg to boot the alt into no load if a tech forgets and leaves it off....