Best Way to Power a Windlass

[rbrentp]

The 29 year exp Maxwell tech said tie into house bank and run wire. He said the forward battery has the same issues with charging and if it gets low you are sol. I did it his way and no issues. I also used the wire chart and then went up one size.

My guess is a corroded contact somewhere or a very sensitive CP. My run is 33ft and I use 2 12v deep cycle as house bank.

[TrentePieds]

Why do you need to have the chart plotter on while weighing anchor? Leave if off and it won't be crying wolf. Once you are hook up, turn the chart plotter on.

Always assuming the your wiring is wholesome, of course.

TrentePieds

[ben373]

Originally Posted by smac999

Bad cables going to the windlass woukd cause a low voltage at the windlass. Not the plotter. Don’t just replace the windlass cables. You need a voltmeter to track down where the drop is happening. It could be at battery, battery switch. Etc. But it’s not the windlass cable.

You do not need a windlass battery in the Front.

If you had a bow thruster drawing 500a which many do. Then a bow battery helps. But many boats do not and they work with out issues. Find and fix the problem. Don’t Add bandaids.

+1 correct

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by smac999

Bad cables going to the windlass woukd cause a low voltage at the windlass. Not the plotter. Don’t just replace the windlass cables. You need a voltmeter to track down where the drop is happening. It could be at battery, battery switch. Etc. But it’s not the windlass cable.

You do not need a windlass battery in the Front.

If you had a bow thruster drawing 500a which many do. Then a bow battery helps. But many boats do not and they work with out issues. Find and fix the problem. Don’t Add bandaids.

I agree. You mentioned you have "heavy cables" but what about the gauge? They are old and stiff, and by installing a battery forward, you will also need new cables to the battery, so why not replace the current cables with a heavier one according to the tables - that is 60 feet (30X2) for 100 amps and 3%. Prices for 4/0 is around $5/foot. My 2 cents.

[tml]

If you have heavy welding cables replace at first opportunity. The wire is very fine gauge so the cable will be flexible. The covering will break down and the wire will literally turn to dust at some locations. In our case it wasn't tinned which made it much worse. As it degrades you get in effect intermittent shorts but the voltage will show normal but under load no power. This can make you a crazy person while you replace relays , motors etc when what you really need to do is get rid of the welding cable.
Once we replaced with Anchor tinned all good
Tom

[Shenandoah52]

Originally Posted by SVTatia

... and by installing a battery forward, you will also need new cables to the battery...

Why would that be? All that is really happening is an additional energy reservoir is being added to the system near the demand so the windlass can drink from a bowl instead of through a straw. In 'industry' this is considered best practice. The additional battery adds to the overall system capacity, makes the windlass more efficient, provides extra grunt when needed, and most probably is cheaper and easier to install than upgraded cables.

And for the record, nobody 'needs' a battery next to their windlass. But from an electro-mechanical standpoint it is a valid alternative to look into. Because in all reality the "Best Way to Power a Windlass" is hydraulically.

[moseriw]

I have 4/0 AWG for the Bowthruster and 1/0 for the windlass. Wire length is 40 ft.
and it turns out that the Voltage drops from 14,2V to 8 (EIGHT) Volts.

Therefore the only way of a proper installation is a battery at the bow with at least 225 Ah. (for the Vetus bowthruster 500A/6Kw)

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by Shenandoah52

Why would that be? All that is really happening is an additional energy reservoir is being added to the system near the demand so the windlass can drink from a bowl instead of through a straw. ....

And how do you plan to recharge this energy reservoir?

The choices are:

1. Replace all the cables with appropriate gauge (one time cost).
2. Find a vented locker, buy/build a battery box, purchase and install a battery at the bow, purchase the appropriate gauge cables to link the battery to the charging source and to the windlass.

Why would you complicate this by having another battery box, another battery in the system to charge and monitor, another maintenance item when you could just get thicker cables?

[CarlF]

As others have said, the problem is not with the windlass cables as the chartplotter is not on that circuit.

a) Measure the voltage at the charplotter with all the normal things turned on. Is the voltage within about 5% of the voltage you measure at the battery? If not, there is corrosion on the chartplotter circuit wiring or the wiring is too small for the number of things on the circuit.

b) If "a" didn't fix it. With the batteries fully charged (12.8v) with engine off and no charger, run the windlass. Does the voltage drop all the way to 10.9v (the setting on our chartplotter)? That's more than it should for a newish pair of T105's. Test your battery capacity. One may be defective.

c) If not "b" repeat B after a night at anchor. When the batteries are not at 12.8v.

d) If "c" didn't fix it. Can you disable the chartplotter alarm? The designers did you no favor with this alarm. Momentary 10.9v isn't going to hurt anything. If you need a voltage alarm, there are better ones built into most battery meters such as the Victron BMV-712.

e) Install a switch(s) so you can power the chartplotter from the start bank. Before running the windlass, switch the chartplotter power. Then switch it back after the anchor is up.

[Cheechako]

Yes run the engine. It's not uncommon though for digital devices to restart or etc when a big DC load happens. Many of mine would go off/on when I just started the engine.

The other thing I would do is check the end fittings on those windlass cables. Many "crimped only" fittings will get surface corrosion inside the fitting. A little salt air and copper creates it's own cuprous oxide layer. I always soldered to tin, crimped and re-soldered mine. It's not uncommon to find a plastic coated wire on a boat green for 2-3 feet into the wire covering.

[sailcrazy]

CarlF...thanks for your comments, and I intend to do just that sort of investigation when we get back onboard. But more to my question... Is it "typical" for boats with windlasses to have a dedicated battery? And if so, what type and size is it and how is it recharged? Our old windlass did not show these symptom, but it was a little smaller than the one now installed. If this windlass is drawing down the bank, as it seems, what's the best way to "fix" the issue. Investigating and buying bits and pieces here in the CONUS is a lot easier than once we're back on board in the Caribb....and I'm just trying to understand what the best approach and solution may be, so I can take the "right stuff" back with me in about 6 weeks.

[Shenandoah52]

Originally Posted by SVTatia

And how do you plan to recharge this energy reservoir?

The choices are:

1. Replace all the cables with appropriate gauge (one time cost).
2. Find a vented locker, buy/build a battery box, purchase and install a battery at the bow, purchase the appropriate gauge cables to link the battery to the charging source and to the windlass.

Why would you complicate this by having another battery box, another battery in the system to charge and monitor, another maintenance item when you could just get thicker cables?

Let me see if I can answer those questions and perhaps give sailcrazy a better handle on why folks like me think the way we do.

So currently there are two heavy cables running forward to the windlass to power it. So we get a voltage drop. Always.
So knowing we have a voltage drop we want to remedy that situation to not only make the windlass run more efficiently but also to extend the life of the windlass motor.

So knowing there are already two heavy cables running forward to the windlass (+) and (-), we don't need to buy any more heavy cable to run forward to the windlass. It's already there in place. What we are lacking is the ability of those two cables to provide adequate voltage under load. So we add a battery in close proximity to the windlass and we take our already existing two heavy cables running forward and we connect the (+) cable to the (+) on the new battery and the (-) cable to the (-) on the new battery and our charging wires are now in place.

But where charging wires are small and can't be used for the type of draw we are seeking we are in luck because we are using the old draw wires to not only charge the new battery but also contribute power during the draw.

So now we connect the windlass to the new battery by running a short heavy cable connecting the (+) post on the windlass motor controller to the (+) on the new battery, and a short heavy cable connecting the (-) post on the windlass motor to the (-) on the new battery. The windlass motor controller, generally the directional solenoids and foot switch(s), is placed between the windlass and the new battery (+) along with the proper fuse or circuit breaker. The arrangement will vary boat by boat.

So now we are going to need a battery box and a new battery. They sell very good battery boxes very inexpensively so we don't need to reinvent the wheel here. The new battery doesn't need to be a monster battery it's function is as an auxiliary battery. This battery can be a gel battery like an Optima battery, or an AGM battery that does not out-gas.

So what we get by doing this is the extra grunt the windlass will provide making anchoring easier, longer windlass motor life expectancy, and additional battery capacity in our low voltage system.

What I just described above is the same system that my service truck uses to power the two DC motors for the hydraulic crane on my service truck. That crane has two DC motors, one to drive the hydraulic pump, and one to drive the winch. The motor that drives the winch is the same motor type and size that is found on many windlasses. If it surprises anyone that the crane manufacturer recommends an auxiliary battery be placed as close to the crane as is feasible they shouldn't be. It is standard practice throughout all industries wherever high-load DC motors are used and powered by batteries.

So as to your question, "Why would you complicate this by having another battery box, another battery in the system to charge and monitor, another maintenance item when you could just get thicker cables?" I am curious why someone would possibly spend more dollars to purchase heavier cables than the cost of a battery, a battery box, and a length of cable to make two short cables from the new battery to the windlass. I also question why anyone would want to re-snake those heavy cables through their boat only to see a minimal improvement in the voltage drop after having spent all that time and money.

But let me be real clear on my views on this subject... I did boat repairs and fabrication work on boats for many years. I got paid to do systems upgrades and improvements over factory installations as a livelihood. I realize to a layman the concept I just described above may seem daunting. I am in no way implying you should do any of this work yourself. If you can't envision a system upgrade like the one described you'll never pull it off by doing it yourself.

[Cheechako]

My view is manufacturers put a battery in the bow to save money on a lot of 0/00 cable. Remember, you have to recharge that battery somehow, so need adequate cable size for that.
What if you have to move a few times in a bad anchoring situation? Will the battery be enough without a long time to recharge through small wire?
A high load 12V will cause a huge voltage drop regardless if it's clear up in the bow. Check with a meter when you start your engine how far it drops. It's just momentary.
Every 44-47 foot boat I have had has had a 2500 -3500 windlass with only cable. No issues, ....ever. Good cables, end fittings clean and protected = good results. KISS

[stormalong]

IMO you have two issues. Deal with them separately.

1) Chart plotter voltage sag: As others have said you may already have a low voltage at the plotter due to wiring issues. The heavy load on the windlass causes additional drop to put the voltage under the threshold.

2) Windlass voltage sag. While you have described the wiring as "heavy" that is not enough information. What size and type of wire is it? What condition is it in? IIRC Taswells were Taiwan built. Taiwan was notorious for using welding cable. If it is 30 year old welding cable is probably shot and needs to be replaced. There are far better places to buy boat cable than West Marine. The internet and google are your friends.

You have said the the engine in running when you raise anchor but you only have a small alternator with an internal regulator. Small alternators with internal regulators put out surprisingly little power at idle. They are designed for car engines with small loads other than engine starting. You are in a different game now. A clamp on DC ammeter would be very helpful in determining both how much power you are generating and the actual current load of the windlass.

The "battery at the bow" discussion has been going on for as long as there have been electric windlasses. I am in the don't do it camp. You are adding a heavy battery at the bow where you do not want more weight. It has to be very well secured to handle the motion which is more pronounced at the ends of the boat. It is a maintenance item that will often be forgotten about until it fails. If your wiring is adequate you would be better off upgrading your alternator to one with higher output at low rpm and a "smart" regulator.

[Shenandoah52]

Originally Posted by stormalong

The "battery at the bow" discussion has been going on for as long as there have been electric windlasses. I am in the don't do it camp. You are adding a heavy battery at the bow where you do not want more weight.

@ stormalong, I think overall that was one the better responses to the OP's question. I did, however get a chuckle out of this line... "You are adding a heavy battery at the bow where you do not want more weight."

Since the weight of a bow battery is equivalent to 30' of 3/8" chain I can't imagine a thread where anyone would actively encourage boat owners to cut off 30' of their anchor chain because that 30' of chain is going to cause them problems at the bow.

Is that a stretch? Most definitely.

I have a bias toward the 'pro' side of this issue due to years of anchoring off the SoCal coast where I would regularly be anchoring in deep water several times in a single day. Pulling up an anchor from 150" depth multiple times in a day shaped my thinking. If one's boating habits only require the occasional anchor hoisting from shallow water than a bow battery is probably overkill.