Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-07-2015, 09:36   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: still in a roll of fiberglass around Cape Town
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,201
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomracer View Post
The fuel cell puts out pretty good current (6.x a) day and night...and is keeping up with the draw without batting an eyelash. Solar is just not an option. I might get a small one to assist during the day, but don't have the real estate for permanent panels.

The dumb charger i just meant the old school ones that just pump out amps without stages like most of todays...just trying to figure out if the charger I have is a good choice or if there are better ones.

Unless I run out of methanol (only once so far) the battery never drops below low 12v (12.2 maybe) as the fuel cell kicks in and hits it with 6.x amp til it gets to 14.2v and goes into a multi stage float program. It just seems to be coming on more than I expected, leading me to my original question about best practices and keeping the system in good health.
Keeping up with the draw is one thing, keeping batteries in good shape is another thing. Of course it is your boat and you decide; if you have answers you like then yo do not need to ask.

If you want meaningful contribution regarding that fuel cell and its relate charger please provide data about the "Multi stage float program".14.2 V absorption voltage is too low for most flooded batteries that are actually cycled (ie used as storage rather than as "capacitors" as in a car). Duration of absorption stage is another issue.
__________________

__________________
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 09:41   #17
Registered User
 
phantomracer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1968 Ohlson 38 Sloop
Posts: 773
Images: 9
Send a message via Yahoo to phantomracer
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
This fuel cell is a form of battery charger? Or is it making 6 amps of 110V power, that runs the regular battery charger?
Sorry, but as your on a mooring, I don't understand where the 110V power to run the WM charger is coming from.
Sounds like the fuel cell monitors battery voltage and comes on automatically to charge the batteries?
Yes the fuel cell is a methanol powered battery charger (like solar is a solar powered batter charger), but works day and night at a constant, controlled, rate like a smart multi-stage charger

Clean, fully automatic charging of on-board batteries | EFOY

the WM charger is for when I am on the hard (or at the dock, which is very rare)
__________________

__________________
Paul S
Blog - https://www.facebook.com/ohlson38project
website http://www.mildredrose.com
phantomracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 09:44   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: still in a roll of fiberglass around Cape Town
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,201
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomracer View Post
Yes the fuel cell is a methanol powered battery charger (like solar is a solar powered batter charger), but works day and night at a constant, controlled, rate like a smart multi-stage charger

Clean, fully automatic charging of on-board batteries | EFOY

the WM charger is for when I am on the hard (or at the dock, which is very rare)
What model do you have?

EFOY 600 / EFOY 900 / EFOY 1200 / EFOY 1600 / EFOY 2200?
__________________
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 09:49   #19
Registered User
 
phantomracer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1968 Ohlson 38 Sloop
Posts: 773
Images: 9
Send a message via Yahoo to phantomracer
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
Keeping up with the draw is one thing, keeping batteries in good shape is another thing. Of course it is your boat and you decide; if you have answers you like then yo do not need to ask.

If you want meaningful contribution regarding that fuel cell and its relate charger please provide data about the "Multi stage float program".14.2 V absorption voltage is too low for most flooded batteries that are actually cycled (ie used as storage rather than as "capacitors" as in a car). Duration of absorption stage is another issue.
I don't have the answers, which is why I am asking..

Being on a mooring has challenges, especially running refrigeration. I don't know that I am getting the best performance out of my batteries, and don't know where the problem is (or if there is even one)

I purchased a programmer for the fuel cell and I will up the voltage (comes pre-set at 14.2) There is a writeup on the program the fuel cell uses to charge. I can't seem to find it at the moment. not to dissimilar to other smart chargers.

If I am doing something wrong, I want to nip it in the bud now
__________________
Paul S
Blog - https://www.facebook.com/ohlson38project
website http://www.mildredrose.com
phantomracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 09:50   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: still in a roll of fiberglass around Cape Town
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,201
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
What model do you have?

EFOY 600 / EFOY 900 / EFOY 1200 / EFOY 1600 / EFOY 2200?
Or do you have on eof the Comfort models that let you set voltages, absorption time, etc? If so please share your settings, which would explain your symptoms.
__________________
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 09:51   #21
Registered User
 
phantomracer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1968 Ohlson 38 Sloop
Posts: 773
Images: 9
Send a message via Yahoo to phantomracer
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
What model do you have?

EFOY 600 / EFOY 900 / EFOY 1200 / EFOY 1600 / EFOY 2200?
1600 fuel cell on Mildred Rose
__________________
Paul S
Blog - https://www.facebook.com/ohlson38project
website http://www.mildredrose.com
phantomracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 09:52   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: still in a roll of fiberglass around Cape Town
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,201
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomracer View Post

I purchased a programmer for the fuel cell and I will up the voltage (comes pre-set at 14.2) There is a writeup on the program the fuel cell uses to charge. I can't seem to find it at the moment. not to dissimilar to other smart chargers.

If I am doing something wrong, I want to nip it in the bud now
Doses the system you have let you program the following settings?

You can select the following options in the "Battery
parameters" menu:
- Switch-on delay
- Switch-on voltage
- Switch-off voltage
- Switch-off current
- Absorption time
- Max. charge time

If so please share what are the values of those settings right now.
C
__________________
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 09:52   #23
Registered User
 
phantomracer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1968 Ohlson 38 Sloop
Posts: 773
Images: 9
Send a message via Yahoo to phantomracer
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
Or do you have on eof the Comfort models that let you set voltages, absorption time, etc? If so please share your settings, which would explain your symptoms.
it is pre-set at the factory. I just purchased the programmer so i can tweak the settings
__________________
Paul S
Blog - https://www.facebook.com/ohlson38project
website http://www.mildredrose.com
phantomracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 09:54   #24
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Paul,

You might want to learn more about batteries and their care:

The Ample Power Primer http://www.amplepower.com/primer/primer.pdf

I haven't read about your fuel cell, yet, but solar is always suggested when on a mooring.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 09:54   #25
Registered User
 
phantomracer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1968 Ohlson 38 Sloop
Posts: 773
Images: 9
Send a message via Yahoo to phantomracer
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
Doses the system you have let you program the following settings?

You can select the following options in the "Battery
parameters" menu:
- Switch-on delay
- Switch-on voltage
- Switch-off voltage
- Switch-off current
- Absorption time
- Max. charge time

If so please share what are the values of those settings right now.
C
they are the default. i haven't changed it yet. Just received the adapter yesterday
__________________
Paul S
Blog - https://www.facebook.com/ohlson38project
website http://www.mildredrose.com
phantomracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 09:55   #26
Registered User
 
phantomracer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1968 Ohlson 38 Sloop
Posts: 773
Images: 9
Send a message via Yahoo to phantomracer
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Paul,

You might want to learn more about batteries and their care:

The Ample Power Primer http://www.amplepower.com/primer/primer.pdf

I haven't read about your fuel cell, yet, but solar is always suggested when on a mooring.
true.. solar works pretty poorly at night, when I have my laptop, fridge, lights, etc on. Fuel cell is pretty cool, but not inexpensive.
__________________
Paul S
Blog - https://www.facebook.com/ohlson38project
website http://www.mildredrose.com
phantomracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 10:16   #27
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomracer View Post
The fuel cell puts out pretty good current (6.x a) day and night...and is keeping up with the draw without batting an eyelash. Solar is just not an option. I might get a small one to assist during the day, but don't have the real estate for permanent panels.

The dumb charger i just meant the old school ones that just pump out amps without stages like most of todays...just trying to figure out if the charger I have is a good choice or if there are better ones.

Unless I run out of methanol (only once so far) the battery never drops below low 12v (12.2 maybe) as the fuel cell kicks in and hits it with 6.x amp til it gets to 14.2v and goes into a multi stage float program. It just seems to be coming on more than I expected, leading me to my original question about best practices and keeping the system in good health.
Part of the problem with the Efoy is it uses an old school ON/OFF rather "dumb", if you will, charge protocol as it ships from the factory..

It allows the battery to discharge to approx 12.3V then it turns on and brings the bank to 14.2V. At 14.2V it then shuts off and lets the battery voltage decay to 12.3V again before it turns on again..

This is simply not a healthy charge algorithm for lead acid batteries as it does not hold a proper absorption voltage time and does not hold the battery at "full" because it is allowing it to "cycle" or drop to somewhere around 60-65% SOC before turning on again. You are essentially PSOC (partial state of charge) cycling the bank every day...

If the ON point is bumped to 12.9V to 13.0V the battery would remain fuller but the Efoy would have shorter run-time cycles and I am unsure if this is "recommended".

The ON/OFF parameters on the Efoy can be changed but this requires Efoy software and a computer. Best to consult with Efoy on this and specifically ask about what impact any short-cycling will have on the longevity of the unit. A 13.0V ON point is much better for the batteries as you are not using their capacity but it would create a very short run time back to 14.2V and this I am unsure of as to the health of the Efoy. I've quoted a number of them and done the research but not yet installed one. One of my main frustrations is the charge algorithm which is really old school...

The Efoy is really not a charger as it ships because it uses your batteries for about 35% of their capacity before bringing them back to 14.2V and shutting off again. A battery charger would maintain them at full and the battery charger would supply the needed power when plugged in...
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 10:18   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: still in a roll of fiberglass around Cape Town
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,201
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomracer View Post
It just seems to be coming on more than I expected, leading me to my original question about best practices and keeping the system in good health.
[QUOTE=phantomracer;1873472]

Your concern is spot on. More that practices it is about the balance of the system design. The charger built into the fuel cell is too small (5 amps at 14.5V) to feed the amps absorbed by the 262Ah batteries in the early stage of absorption PLUS the fridge draw.

Therefore the "program" will restart and you cannot rely on the "float" stage. You end up having 2-stage charger. You need to get the absorption (2nd stage voltage) right (high enough) to preserve the batteries, but then you will have the issue that your batteries will get cooked if the absorption timer resets too early as I described, because it will not trip to float.

Now you understand why MaineSail was not keen on these things..

E FOY Fuel Cell Generator

Ignore MaineSailīs musings at your own peril!
__________________
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 10:33   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: still in a roll of fiberglass around Cape Town
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,201
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomracer View Post
Solar is just not an option. I might get a small one to assist during the day, but don't have the real estate for permanent panels.
I understand your reluctance about ugly solar panels; that is a very nice boat..

That said, I wonder if you have seen some of the new flexible panels installed on a bimini with velcro. See below a photo of my little piece of French white plastic.

Click image for larger version

Name:	20150422_073446.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	402.1 KB
ID:	105748

Click image for larger version

Name:	20150422_074555.jpg
Views:	96
Size:	402.0 KB
ID:	105749

It may not be as elegant as your boat but I would argue that the 2x100W panels do not look bad.. I am planning to install two more in the coachroof. At $200 a piece I donīt worry much about stepping on them and damaging them..
__________________
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-07-2015, 11:01   #30
Registered User
 
phantomracer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston, MA
Boat: 1968 Ohlson 38 Sloop
Posts: 773
Images: 9
Send a message via Yahoo to phantomracer
Re: Best practice for desulfation battery bank

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
I understand your reluctance about ugly solar panels; that is a very nice boat..

That said, I wonder if you have seen some of the new flexible panels installed on a bimini with velcro. See below a photo of my little piece of French white plastic.

Attachment 105748

Attachment 105749

It may not be as elegant as your boat but I would argue that the 2x100W panels do not look bad.. I am planning to install two more in the coachroof. At $200 a piece I donīt worry much about stepping on them and damaging them..
I am likely going to augment the system with a small portable solar panel, but I can't get myself to mount them permanently. being on a mooring, id have to keep them parallel to the earth which is not optimal, they work best perpendicular to the suns rays, which i can't aim being on a mooring
__________________

__________________
Paul S
Blog - https://www.facebook.com/ohlson38project
website http://www.mildredrose.com
phantomracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.