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Old 20-05-2007, 13:20   #31
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Perhaps it's mass delusion.
Quite possibly. Unless you side by side test equipment, you can only assume. Sure a pulse charger may work. But so may a smart charger. How do you know unless side by side compared. Does a pulse charger get rid of sulphation??? maybe, but to get rid of sulphation you firstly have to create it. Sulphation is created during discharge and is a sum of the time the battery remains in a low state of charge. Keep a battery well maintained in a state of full charge and you have no sulphation. So to truely test which charger is better, you have to identicly discharge both battery banks for the same period of time and see which charger works better at keepign sulphation levels down. The state of electrolyte comes down to the state of charge, not the state of sulphation.
It is interesting that I can "supposedly" fully charge my banks with the engine alternator(no smart fitted to alternator.....yet) and I get a good 30% (a guess) less Ahrs than when charged from my smart charger on shore power. ummm, that sounded messy. What I mean is, I can get an enormuse amoutn more usable capacity on the first nioght out due to my smart charger getting more charge into the banks. The following nights I have significantly less capacity even if I have had the engine running for hrs and the ameter suggests the bank is fully charged. Yeah I know why and hence I am going to get a smart sytem on my alternator one day when I can afford it.
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Old 20-05-2007, 14:17   #32
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Bill Trayfors and a group of others have been testing pulsing chargers and so far (as of last post) have not been able to endorse pulse chargers. There is, to my knowledge and as posted by Bill, no scientific evidence to support the claim that pulse chargers add to the life of lead acid batteries.
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Old 20-05-2007, 14:25   #33
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At the very considerable risk of jumping into a hornets nest -- which I have no intention to do -- I think it would be good to consider the following points. These are based on almost a year's testing of numerous pulsing devices, including two of the aforementioned PowerPulse units, in an effort to answer the "simple" question, "do these things really work, or are they just snake oil?".

What we've found is that the "simple" question, in fact, is a very complex one to answer with any degree of certitude. This is a question which should be of some importance to both public and private entities, since improvements in our ability to store electricity are closely tied to the larger energy enigma.

Lead acid batteries, including the gelled and AGM variants, deteriorate over time from a number of conditions. These include, inter alia, stratification of the electrolyte, trapped gas bubbles which inhibit effective circulation of the electrolyte over the plates, sulfation of the positive plates, deterioration in the physical properties of the active parts of the battery (including it's plates), contamination of the electrolyte, corrosion, overcharging and overheating, excessive outgassing, and other show-stoppers like shorted plates and open circuits.

Sulfation is certainly a major player. It occurs whenever batteries are left partially discharged over a significant period of time...weeks or months. It also happens when batteries are chronically undercharged, i.e., never fully charged.

Sulfation can occur in degrees....light, medium, heavy. In the worst cases, lead sulfate crystals (PbSO4) collect on the positive plates of the battery and become embedded in the plates themselves.

Recovery from sulfation can be pretty good for light cases, and pretty iffy for the heavier cases. It has been shown that deep discharging followed by full charging can help in the former instance, while equalization (charging at a "high" voltage for a few hours, with heavy gassing) can help in the more severe cases. Both of these also help with the problem of electrolyte stratification and gas bubble blockages.

Which leaves us with the question about pulsing devices. These have intrigued us for over 30 years, both as heavy amperage pulsing devices for fast charging and in their current fashion as little pulsing devices which are NOT intended to charge batteries, per se, but rather to use existing battery capacity to produce periodic pulses designed to dislodge PbSO4 crystals, and to prevent their formation.

Do they really work? There's lots of anecdotal "evidence" to suggest that they may be helpful in certain cases. There are a number of users who've witnessed and reported some astonishing claims. There are whole cults of affectionados who build and test their own, using circuits published on the Internet and modifications thereof.

However, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that we've seen. And, our own testing of a dozen devices -- including electronic profiles of the actual pulses generated by these devices -- leaves us sceptical.

The results of our research will be published in a few months. Stay tuned :-)

Bill
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Old 20-05-2007, 15:12   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btrayfors
At the very considerable risk of jumping into a hornets nest -- which I have no intention to do -- I think it would be good to consider the following points. These are based on almost a year's testing of numerous pulsing devices, including two of the aforementioned PowerPulse units, in an effort to answer the "simple" question, "do these things really work, or are they just snake oil?".

What we've found is that the "simple" question, in fact, is a very complex one to answer with any degree of certitude. This is a question which should be of some importance to both public and private entities, since improvements in our ability to store electricity are closely tied to the larger energy enigma.

Lead acid batteries, including the gelled and AGM variants, deteriorate over time from a number of reasons. These include, inter alia, stratification of the electrolyte, trapped gas bubbles which inhibit effective circulation of the electrolyte over the plates, sulfation of the positive plates, deterioration in the physical properties of the active parts of the battery (including it's plates), contamination of the electrolyte, corrosion, overcharging and overheating, excessive outgassing, and other show-stoppers like shorted plates and open circuits.

Sulfation is certainly a major player. It occurs whenever batteries are left partially discharged over a significant period of time...weeks or months. It also happens when batteries are chronically undercharged, i.e., never fully charged.

Sulfation can occur in degrees....light, medium, heavy. In the worst cases, lead sulfate crystals (PbSO4) collect on the positive plates of the battery and become embedded in the plates themselves.

Recovery from sulfation can be pretty good for light cases, and pretty iffy for the heavier cases. It has been shown that deep discharging followed by full charging can help in the former instance, while equalization (charging at a "high" voltage for a few hours, with heavy gassing) can help in the more severe cases. Both of these also help with the problem of electrolyte stratification and gas bubble blockages.

Which leaves us with the question about pulsing devices. These have intrigued us for over 30 years, both as heavy amperage pulsing devices for fast charging and in their current fashion as little pulsing devices which are NOT intended to charge batteries, per se, but rather to use existing battery capacity to produce periodic pulses designed to dislodge PbSO4 crystals, and to prevent their formation.

Do they really work? There's lots of anecdotal "evidence" to suggest that they may be helpful in certain cases. There are a number of users who've witnessed and reported some astonishing claims. There are whole cults of affectionados who build and test their own, using circuits published on the Internet and modifications thereof.

However, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that we've seen. And, our own testing of a dozen devices -- including electronic profiles of the actual pulses generated by these devices -- leaves us sceptical.

The results of our research will be published in a few months. Stay tuned :-)

Bill
Yo Bill,

****KUDOS**** for such a terrific post! So good I'm quoting the whole thing again here.

And I am anxious to see the results of your research. Particularly so, as I have four L16 six-volt batteries which have been without charge for over a year. It may be too late to save them, but I am sure gonna try! They provide a 740 amp-hour 12-volt house bank.

best, andy
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Old 20-05-2007, 17:54   #35
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Hey Bill, here's my own contribution to the Amazing Claims list.

Years and years ago, when a 6 (or was it 9?) transistor AM radio that ran on a 9-volt battery was THE state of the art in personal entertainment?

I had left mine in a bureau drawer, apparently on and dead. During a real monster thunderstorm, I heard music coming out of the drawer. To this day, I will swear the lightning activity recharged the dead 9-volt carbon battery (no alkaline then, no NiCad then). Yes, you can get free power from storms, I heard it with my own ears!
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Old 20-05-2007, 18:06   #36
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Neat!

I believe Ben Franklin discovered the "free power from storms" phenomenon some years before you were 6 :-)

And, I've got a 35-year old Chinese ni-cad battery pack, 24V, in a NOS Chinese military backpack HF radio which still takes and holds a charge! I think Durocell and Eveready ought to take notice.

But, I've also got two very bad T-105s sitting here which I pretty much killed by not keeping them charged up during their 3-year stint as dedicated anchor windlass batteries, and which I've tried to revive with heroic efforts for almost a year....without success.

You just never know :-)

Bill
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Old 21-05-2007, 04:36   #37
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Originally Posted by Roy M
Gosh, I guess the hundred or so customers that I've installed them for must be wondering why they haven't had to replace batteries. You know, I know it's hard to accept new technologies...
Why is it so easy to deceive and delude vast numbers of people, with extraordinary claims for “miracle products” - even absent any supporting evidence?

For instance, millions of people have spent around $50 on a Q-Ray Bracelet (and it’s like); expecting it to provide numerous [*1] health benefits.

The Q-Ray bracelet is a line of costume jewelry that has been claimed to relieve pain and to provide various health benefits [*1]. It is claimed to work by balancing "energy" that cannot be measured with scientific instrumentation. Its supposed mechanism of "ionic" action is preposterous. The only published scientific study [*2] of the device found that it had no special effect against pain. Its marketing claims were greatly toned down by a private consumer protection lawsuit filed in California, but I believe that the manufacturer still exaggerates what the bracelet can do.

[*1] restore health, relieve cancer pain, improve muscle flexibility, improve sports performance, restore energy

[*2] Effect of "ionized" wrist bracelets on musculoskeletal pain:
A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial
~ by Bratton RL and others in the Mayo Clinic Proceedings - November 2002, Vol. 77, No. 11
Mayo Clinic Proceedings

The Q-Ray marketing descriptions of bodily electrical energy flow, and the “Q-Ray effect”, are complete nonsense, and false on the face of it/them (to anyone with any understanding of the processes, at all) ... Yet millions buy into the scam, at not insignificant expense.

Some of these “miracle” devices may have the potential [*3] to prove efficacious ~ but I think I’ll wait for some evidence, like Bill’s study.

Remember, for every little kid who still believes in Santa Claus, there is at least one adult who still believes in professional wrestling.


On Potential vs Reality:

A kid comes home from school with a writing assignment. He asks his father for help. "Dad, can you tell me the difference between potential and reality?"

His father looks up, thoughtfully, and then says, "I'll demonstrate. Go ask your mother if she would sleep with Robert Redford for a million dollars. Then go ask your sister if she would sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars. Then come back and tell me what you've learned."

The kid is puzzled, but decides to ask his mother. "Mom, if someone gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with Robert Redford?"

"Don't tell your father, but, yes, I would."

He then goes to his sister's room. "Sis, if someone gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with Brad Pitt?"

She replies, "Omigod! Definitely!"

The kid goes back to his father. "Dad, I think I've figured it out. Potentially, we are sitting on two million bucks, but in reality, we are living with two sluts."


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Old 21-05-2007, 09:30   #38
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potential/reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay

Some of these “miracle” devices may have the potential [*3] to prove efficacious ~ but I think I’ll wait for some evidence, like Bill’s study.

On Potential vs Reality:

A kid comes home from school with a writing assignment. He asks his father for help. "Dad, can you tell me the difference between potential and reality?"

His father looks up, thoughtfully, and then says, "I'll demonstrate. Go ask your mother if she would sleep with Robert Redford for a million dollars. Then go ask your sister if she would sleep with Brad Pitt for a million dollars. Then come back and tell me what you've learned."

The kid is puzzled, but decides to ask his mother. "Mom, if someone gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with Robert Redford?"

"Don't tell your father, but, yes, I would."

He then goes to his sister's room. "Sis, if someone gave you a million dollars, would you sleep with Brad Pitt?"

She replies, "Omigod! Definitely!"

The kid goes back to his father. "Dad, I think I've figured it out. Potentially, we are sitting on two million bucks, but in reality, we are living with two sluts."

Yo Gord,

I LOVE IT!

best, andy
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