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Old 30-05-2013, 19:45   #16
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Because crimping solid wire is like farting in church, you just don't do it..... It looks like he both crimped and soldered so very odd why it pulled out...
I pull stuff like this out of boats all the time. A fart in Church hehe.

Building wire is annealed when new it bends like butter, but after a couple of years of just vibration and heating cycles it work hardens.

And does this



I am never amazed at what I find on boats anymore...dismayed is more the description.

The pics posted and referenced in this thread show that this guy needs a professional, and should retire his DIY'er Shingle.

Lloyd
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Old 30-05-2013, 19:54   #17
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

I stand corrected, you see even worse stuff.
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Old 30-05-2013, 20:01   #18
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
The pics posted and referenced in this thread show that this guy needs a professional, and should retire his DIY'er Shingle.
In the haste once again to discourage boat owners from working on their own boats, our commercial electricians may have missed the original post. It asks the question of whether a boat with a generator would benefit from having an inverter as well. There is NOTHING in the OP about DIY electrical work.

This is becoming a fairly predictable pattern. Someone asks a question related to electrical systems, and we get commercial members posting photos of the disastrous consequences of boat owners working on their own systems.
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Old 30-05-2013, 20:05   #19
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

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If you have genset, which this vessel does, and a battery charger, how advantageous is having an inverter? I'm certainly not against adding one if it really makes sense. How much are they?
If I had a genset, I wouldn't bother with an inverter. I have a 2500-watt inverter on my current boat, and in seven years I haven't run the thing more than an hour.
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Old 30-05-2013, 20:09   #20
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

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In the haste once again to discourage boat owners from working on their own boats, our commercial electricians may have missed the original post. It asks the question of whether a boat with a generator would benefit from having an inverter as well. There is NOTHING in the OP about DIY electrical work.

This is becoming a fairly predictable pattern. Someone asks a question related to electrical systems, and we get commercial members posting photos of the disastrous consequences of boat owners working on their own systems.
Our maybe we are seeing the effects of a DIYer doing it improperly.

Now a picture is worth a thousands words... so in the end if it makes an impact on the newly formed DIYer, he will see the the light and DIY-it the right way.

Using building wire on a boat is dangerous, and at the very least it will cause very frustrating problems.

So get off your high horse, and see the value that commercial members offer the forum.

Lloyd
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Old 30-05-2013, 20:10   #21
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

I ain't no commercial member but when I see a pig I know it. I would hesitate to show off the crappy work shown in that picture. Plenty of non -pro people do great work but this is not an example of it.
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Old 30-05-2013, 22:02   #22
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

Want to offer out a big thumbs up and thanks to everyone who replied, lots of good opinions and knowledge ......
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Old 31-05-2013, 00:23   #23
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

I was in the same position as you when I bought my boat -- a excellent low-speed generator but no inverter.

I lived with it like that for a couple of years, then installed a Victron charger-inverter when the Newmar charger blew up.

Here are my observations:

1. An inverter is extremely useful even on a boat with a good, quiet genset. The reason is this -- you don't want to start up the genset every time you put a kettle on, make a piece of toast, watch a DVD, run a vacuum cleaner for two minutes, charge a cell phone, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. It's not good for the generator to run it for short periods, under light loads, stop and go, etc., and besides that even a quiet genset does make some sound. So you want to concentrate your power production in intensive generator runs once or twice a day. So the inverter is tremendously useful for efficient use of your genset.

2. Victron is supposed to make the best charger/inverters; certainly they are the most expensive. The functions are wonderful; and the units themselves feel like good quality -- heavy, robust-seeming kit -- using transformers, not switch-mode gear. But I have had a lot of trouble with all of my Victron gear, including a dead failure of the charger inverter at a little over one year old. I would not necessarily recommend it. Do look for one, however, that has something like Victron's "power boost" feature; it is extremely useful.

3. Beware of power ratings. My inverters says "3000" on the tin. Does it produce 3000watts? Hah! If you read the fine print, it's really 2500 watts. Derate it from there for temperatures above 20C. Derate it more if you don't have battery capacity to maintain 26+ volts under load. So in reality, although I am in a cold climate and with a large, fresh battery bank, I certainly cannot run anything over 2000 watts with my "3000" inverter without getting an "overload" warning. Comfortable "working load" for my "3000" inverter is probably more like 1600 watts. The good news is that this is probably all you need -- it's enough to run any one thing at a time, and if you need more than that, then you should be using the genset anyway.

4. The exception to that is the electric kettle. I have not been able to find one that uses less than 2.3kW. I do run my kettle off the inverter, which complains of being overloaded (although the load at this temp and voltage should be ok according to the specs). But I am still looking for a kettle with a smaller element -- 1.5kW would be ideal. An electric kettle is an extremely useful thing to have on board, by the way, especially if you have tea drinkers on board.

5. Having an inverter on board greatly increases the demand for battery capacity. If you don't have a big bank, or are willing to upgrade your battery bank, then you might think twice about it, or else buy a small one for just small power things like electronics. I have 420 amp/hours x 24 volts -- that's just about enough. Any less and I would have to seriously curtail use of the inverter.

Good luck, and let us know how it all turns out.
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Old 31-05-2013, 00:29   #24
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Our maybe we are seeing the effects of a DIYer doing it improperly.

Now a picture is worth a thousands words... so in the end if it makes an impact on the newly formed DIYer, he will see the the light and DIY-it the right way.

Using building wire on a boat is dangerous, and at the very least it will cause very frustrating problems.

So get off your high horse, and see the value that commercial members offer the forum.

Lloyd
I agree with Bash that we have had a lot of propaganda intended to discourage people from working on their own boats.

However, I also agree with Flying Cloud that a lot of these "warnings" are very useful to DIYers who are not easily discouraged by the advice of commercial members not to attempt it. I am grateful to Flying Cloud for his photos, which are a good lesson. I think I do have some building wire on my boat (for AC, however, not DC -- I use strictly only tinned marine--rated wire for DC circuits). It goes into screw terminals, not any crimps anywhere. I'm wondering whether I should rip it out.
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Old 31-05-2013, 01:51   #25
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

We have a 6.5kW Northern Lights genset and a 750W inverter. I wouldn't dream of not having an inverter - they're great for recharging your battery powered tools, TV, Computer etc. You really don't want to fire up the genny to watch TV.

Just make sure you get a pure sine wave - a lot of modern electrics really don't like anything else!! Also, most people I know don't recommend the combined charger/inverter. I've just had my inverter killed by a lighting strike - needless to say I'm glad it wasn't combined with the charger which is fine!

BTW, we lived on our cat for a year and used the inverter every day. We probably only fired up the genset about once every 5 days to top up the batteries.

Cheers
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Old 31-05-2013, 03:57   #26
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

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4. The exception to that is the electric kettle. I have not been able to find one that uses less than 2.3kW. I do run my kettle off the inverter, which complains of being overloaded (although the load at this temp and voltage should be ok according to the specs). But I am still looking for a kettle with a smaller element -- 1.5kW would be ideal. An electric kettle is an extremely useful thing to have on board, by the way, especially if you have tea drinkers on board.
plenty 0.5litre to 1 litre, do a search on amazon,co,uk for 'travel kettle" all around 1kw to 1.5kw ( 230 VAC)

Russell Hobbs 14178 Travel Kettle with Boil Dry Protection: Amazon.co.uk: Kitchen & Home

very handy for a quick cuppa char

dave
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Old 31-05-2013, 04:41   #27
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

All the wire going from the panel mount relays is multicore wire. Crimped and soldered.

The only solid core is in the box itself also crimped and soldered. Nothing is pulled out at all.

My crap is better than yours I think!

Been fine for years and is high and dry and none of my boat wire has ever been a problem.

Your boat wires continually sizzle, steam off when sprayed down with the hose. I prefer a salt water wash down on all the interior of the boat preferably with rats and roaches inside. Helps to keep things cooler and fresh water is not cheap as I have to fill up my tank myself. I would imagine someday all your wires will look green but I also spray them down with used motor oil after hitting them with the salt water. Dip everything in muriatic acid and test for vibration with a meter set to low ohm scale. And be sure and hold onto both ends of the wire when you plug in.

I also get annual coast guard inspections and no one has ever had anything bad to say. In fact everyone who has been out on the boat has been pleased to be on it. The only flack attack I ever get is from certain sailors on this forum. Likely some of you and I will never get along and thankfully never will have to either.
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Old 31-05-2013, 07:38   #28
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

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Not to mention, it's not tinned so it will corrode, electrons travel on the outside of the wire and you only have 1 instead ofmaybe 18-20 and it kind of looks like more of the conductors are house wire too. Actually this is the best example of lousy wiring I could imagine.
You are incorrect about electrons traveling only on the outside of the wire at 50/60Hz.

Untinned wiring is not inherently bad on a boat.

Solid house wire isn't any different than other solid wire - and his application seems OK for solid wire, as it is only being used for short terminal jumpers.

Look at the back of an Outback or Victron inverter and you will see solid wire terminal jumpers used there also.

Mark
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Old 31-05-2013, 07:39   #29
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

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Nothing is pulled out at all.
It certainly appears in the picture that wires have pulled out of their terminals.

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Old 31-05-2013, 08:12   #30
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Re: Battery charger versus inverter

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Not to mention, it's not tinned so it will corrode, electrons travel on the outside of the wire and you only have 1 instead ofmaybe 18-20 and it kind of looks like more of the conductors are house wire too. Actually this is the best example of lousy wiring I could imagine.
I don't think skin effect comes into play here with Cu and 60 Hz.

Most of the current (63%) according to the wiki at 60 Hz in Cu wire is in the outer 8 mm of the wire.

Skin effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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