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Old 23-07-2012, 06:30   #16
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Re: battery charge readings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Don,

Couple of questions:

Which Balmar regulator? it's an ARS, don't have the manual with me but I don't remember it saying more than this, it's at least 10 years old
Where is the red wire connected? for the alrenator, don't really under the question
Is this an MC-6XX or ARS-X? ARS
Can you post a picture of the shunt wiring don't have, but absolutely all current for the house batteries goes though the negtive shunt (I read your article)
Where is the red wire of the Victron connected? to a positive terminal on one of the battery banks the battery
How is the bank connected? Where do the + / - leads leave it? the positive goes to an invereter selector switch, the selector switch determines which battery supplies the inverter and also whch battery gets charged from either the inverter/charger or the alternator - I normally run this switch in "both".

Alternator power gos to an isolator with the alternator and cable to the invereter selector switch on the center "input" terminal and the battery on one of the isolated terminals. I tuened this to off the other day to be sure the start battery was isolated from the start battery in case the house was draining back to the start battery and it didn't change anything. I did have my starter stay energized last month till the starter burned out so thought maybe that damaged the start battery, but the problem predates this and I have seen no difference in the system since.

Off each position of the inverter switch is a separte switch to supply power to the main DC panel - I normally have both of these shut


You may be going into float way to early on that reg, I see this all too often with Balmar's and call it "premature float"..... Also you've adjusted the Ah capacity down on the bank but really have a larger bank this can skew the monitor. I did this just recently the problem was always there with the voltage and I though maybe because the batteries had not been cycled that maybe the capacity wasn't really 460, so tried resetting to the 400 but it doesn't seen to make any changes. The low voltage readins under use go back to last year when I installed both the new batteries and the monitor Unless you have loads in excess of 20+A then you're battery bank is still taking more current than what the monitor suggests full should be taking.. The readings I posted were from the monitor so there were loads still The re-set to full would be at 2% or less @ 14.4V +/-. Seeing as voltage is pressure your bank will accept a lot less current in the 13's than it does at 14.4V so 2% at 13.XX is not going to represent full very well and the current flowing will not be as representative.. I think I have reduced the current setting to 1%, but I've played with it so much lately that I'm not sure. But I think it is a minor thing because whether the batteries got to 100% or only 97% doesn't explain why my voltage drops so much under the normal 6 amp load (to me at least).

A picture of the battery bank & shunt wiring would really help... The other day you posted a resting voltage of 12.5V but the monitor was reading up in the 90's... That represents about 80% SOC so my guess is that your monitor has not been properly set up or possibly wired so it is not "seeing" everything it should? I know people keep saying this, but I've carefully gone though the setup more that once on the monitor. The one that I'm going to look at again next time to the boat is the voltage and time setting for full charge.

Do you have an inverter? Does this load pass through the shunt? My invertaer is normally off.

Do you have a windlass? Does this load pass through the shunt? Windlass uses the start battery, doesn't go though the shunt. But there isn't any corrilation between the windlass use and the problem.

Do you have a secondary bank? Is this on the load side of the shunt? I have 2 banks as noted above, both are normally in use together.
I still currently think the problem is the voltage settings on the regulator. I'm going to go though those freakin reed switch regulator settings and get to be sure it is for wet cell program #2 and if it is I'm going to go into the advanced programing mode and raise the voltage so it charges at 14.4V.

Now whether the batteries have suffered too much from this already is still to be determined.

But I'm open to ideas for other things to check.
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Old 23-07-2012, 06:37   #17
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Re: battery charge readings?

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Have a look at numbers again Don. Batteries will only accept a small amount of charge current once the SOC rises to 90%+.

At 100%( if these figures are current into or out of the battery) yours are still accepting 24.3 A @ 13.87v this is way too high and indicates the batteries are not really at 100%.

2% (9.2A in your case)is commonly accepted figure to drop back to float. So a battery bank your size accepting 9.2A at say 14.4v would indicate your battery bank was reasonably charged somewhere around 96%.

I agree. But if you really look at the number that charge is no where near what at 50% charged battery should be able to accept, and I tried to put more in it by running the engine faster.

One of the readings was:
0945 99.8 -1.6 16.1 14.03

so why running the engine, the monitor said 99.8% SOC. there was 1.6 amp-hours out of the bank, current was 16.1 (but if you look there had been around 7-8 amps load earlier, so the battery was accepting 8-9 amps charge)
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Old 23-07-2012, 06:49   #18
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Re: battery charge readings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I still currently think the problem is the voltage settings on the regulator. I'm going to go though those freakin reed switch regulator settings and get to be sure it is for wet cell program #2 and if it is I'm going to go into the advanced programing mode and raise the voltage so it charges at 14.4V.

Now whether the batteries have suffered too much from this already is still to be determined.

But I'm open to ideas for other things to check.
Don,

The red wire is the red wire in the plug for the regulator, a "Ford" style 4 wire long black plug that is plugged into the regulator. Where does that red wire go? This is the plug on the reg with BLUE, BLACK, RED & BROWN wires. Need to know exactly where the red one goes..

If you have an "isolator" can you describe it? Does it have heat sink fins? Is it a diode isolator, Echo type charger or combining relay?

If your windlass goes to start and they are always in BOTH then it does matter that the windlass is not going through the shunt because none of that load will get counted.

This is why it is so critical to place ALL of the ships neg wires on the load side of the shunt including the starting or reserve battery. If you don't then run it in BOTH or ALL or parellel them some other way anything connected to the other battery will drain off or feed to the monitored bank but the monitor won't see it. Also won't see any inrush charging or drain from the start battery via the house when in BOTH.

If this battery is connected to the house bank via a switch and you use the windlass you are pulling current from the entire bank. Problem is the shunt can't see the portion being drawn from that bank and can not measure the windlass load being placed on the house bank cause the shunt can't see it..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas
Windlass uses the start battery, doesn't go though the shunt. But there isn't any corrilation between the windlass use and the problem.

I have 2 banks as noted above, both are normally in use together.
This can be a problem as I noted above because the shunt will not capture the inverter use...




Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas
Where is the red wire of the Victron connected? to a positive terminal on one of the battery banks the battery


But it is going to the house bank?

Please keep in mind that ANY battery bank that can be combined with the house bank must have its neg terminal on the load side of the house bank shunt or none of the current into or out of the house bank will ever get counted. This can really throw off a battery monitor....
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Old 23-07-2012, 07:10   #19
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Re: battery charge readings?

Don,

Is this 460Ah bank one large hard wired contiguous series parallel bank? Is there ANY way to separate it via a switch or is it permanently hard wired together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas
I have 2 banks as noted above, both are normally in use together.


What is the separate starting battery a 12V or 6V bank? What is the switch used to "connect" them....
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Old 23-07-2012, 07:20   #20
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Re: battery charge readings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Don,

The red wire is the red wire in the plug for the regulator, a "Ford" style 4 wire long black plug that is plugged into the regulator. Where does that red wire go? will check never looked

If you have an "isolator" can you describe it? Does it have heat sink fins? Is it a diode isolator? it is one of these, new last year

Victron Argo FET isolators act similarly to diode battery isolators, allowing simultaneous charging of two or more batteries from one alternator (or a single output battery charger) without connecting the batteries together. Unlike diode battery isolators, FET isolators have virtually no voltage loss. Voltage drop is less than 0.02 Volt at low current and averages 0.1 Volt at higher currents.

The house and the alternator input are connected together and the start on an output. This was how the dioxide one was when I replaced so I did it the same because ai figured it was that way to provide field current for alternator start-up (but I didn't really check into that because I just didn't see any reason not to stay with it)

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If your windlass goes to start and they are always in BOTH then it does matter that the windlass is not going through the shunt because none of that load will get counted. This is why it is so critical to place all neg wires on the load side of the shunt including the starting or reserve battery. If you don't then run it in boath anything connected to the other battery will drain off the entire bank but the monitor won't see it. Also won't see any inrush charging or drain from the start battery via the house when in BOTH. "Both" doesn't man that the house and start batteries are connected, Both means both house banks are selected to the inverter. I agree that the monitor does not measure the windlass and I know that if I use the windlass the house bank will feed back to the starter (I always run the engine when running the windlass). The use of the windlass has been few compared to the issue I have.

Expect for the start battery negative ALL other loads go though the monitor shunt. Down next to my battery banks is a ground bus that used to have a cable going to each battery bank. I removed the cable to the batteries and connected them to one side of the shunt and installed a short cable from the bus to the other side of the shunt.



This can be a problem as I noted above because the shunt will not capture the inverter use...

Far as I know the inverter ground goes though the shunt. If fact I'm 99% sure because if I run my inverter on a load the monitor displays the load.





But it is going to the house bank?

Please keep in mind that ANY battery bank that can be combined with the house bank must have its neg terminal on the load side of the house bank shunt or none of the current into or out of the house bank will ever get counted. This can really throw off a battery monitor....
[/COLOR]
I'm planning on going to the boat later today (after I do some real work), so if you have any other questions please post. I plan to check that regulator setting etc. I will post all the monitor settings. I will post battery voltage at terminals. I will post (assuming I can find one ) specific gravity readings.

I'm going to get to the freaking bottom of this !
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Old 23-07-2012, 07:23   #21
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Re: battery charge readings?

Don this is my batteries on float a few minutes ago. This is sort of battery return amps you should be getting for a fully charged battery.
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Old 23-07-2012, 07:27   #22
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Re: battery charge readings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Both means both house banks are selected to the inverter.
Both house banks? You know you can only monitor ONE bank with the Victron BMV's..... So do you have two banks of 230Ah's that yo combine for a house bank? We really need a photo or a very accurate drawing as this keeps getting more convoluted and it sounds more and more like a wiring issue.. The start battery needs to be on the load side of that shunt and the house bank should really be one contiguous bank for the monitor to work accurately.
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Old 23-07-2012, 07:30   #23
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Re: battery charge readings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Don,

Is this 460Ah bank one large hard wired contiguous series parallel bank? Is there ANY way to separate it via a switch or is it permanently hard wired together?

[/COLOR]

What is the separate starting battery a 12V or 6V bank? What is the switch used to "connect" them....
The start battery is a single 12V battery. The only thing that connects the start and the house bank is the isolator in the charging circuit. Though I have never tried it I would guess that power would feed from the house to the start battery if the start battery was low (because the house is connected to the input terminal). I have considered that the start battery was the problem, but since I can leave the boat for a week and the house bank voltage doesn't change I have discounted it (the voltage only changes is running house loads).

House bank
two banks with 2 different paths

selctor switch for 1,2, both, off for the inverter - this switch also selects which bank gets charged - normally I run in both so both banks are selected for inverter use or charging - but I but it in off the other after charging and it didn't change anything

another line from each bank that goes though a switchoff the selector siwtch that supplies the main DC panel - I normally have both shut so both house banks are in service to the main DC panel
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Old 23-07-2012, 07:38   #24
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Re: battery charge readings?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Both house banks? You know you can only monitor ONE bank with the Victron BMV's..... So do you have two banks of 230Ah's that yo combine for a house bank? We really need a photo or a very accurate drawing as this keeps getting more convoluted and it sounds more and more like a wiring issue.. The start battery needs to be on the load side of that shunt and the house bank should really be one contiguous bank for the monitor to work accurately.

It was confusing for me initialy because I kept looking at the 1.2 both, off as a "noraml" battery selector switch when all it does is selct the inverter, but once you understand the system it makes sense and I bet all more modern Hunters are wired this way.

The way I have it wired is that both banks go though the shunt, both banks are in service all the time to either the inverter (rarely used) and to the main DC panel.

If for some reason I would only run 1 bank I agree my monitor would not work.

while I do have 2 banks they are setup as 1, just that the ability to only use 1 bank is possibe with the switch and breakers without having to remove a cable

Please just trust me that all the house loads are going though the monitor shunt! There is only 1 wire connected to each banks negative terminal and both those go to the same terminal on the shunt.
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Old 23-07-2012, 13:17   #25
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Re: battery charge readings?

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Now whether the batteries have suffered too much from this already is still to be determined.

But I'm open to ideas for other things to check.

Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first send mad.

2055 100% -.3 24.3 13.87
2110 100% 0 -9.1 12.85
0630 94.9% -31.6 -3.63 12.12

It's a pity that you don't have numbers from a year ago, because a comparison would be great to put your mind at ease.

The batteries are not fully charged as they are still taking a large current when the monitor is reading they are charged and hence you are turning the engine off. That does tie in with the voltage measured 15 mins later being 1 volt less and then the final value in the morning is .7V after being under a small load all night which leads me to think that your batteries are still OK. I have a pair of 4Ds (360Ah) and I keep basic notes on the readings over 5 years and I'm getting a bigger variance on my overnight voltages when connected to a similar load.

But you did say in the other thread that you reset the monitor when the charge was >2A so it does make me curious as to why.

If you can bump up the output on the regulator, that would help and then just keep a closer eye on the acid levels.

But a second charging source would be a great help.

The cheap and nasty Harbor Freight 900W Ac generator is now $90 (in the latest advert in Boat US) they are cheap (and loud) but at that price its got to compare with going back to the dock for an AC charge?
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Old 23-07-2012, 14:13   #26
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Re: battery charge readings?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Don,

Couple of questions:

Which Balmar regulator? ARS-4
Where is the red wire connected? connected to the output terminal on the alternator
Is this an MC-6XX or ARS-X?
Can you post a picture of the shunt wiring
Where is the red wire of the Victron connected? connected to the battery terminal for bank #2
How is the bank connected? Where do the + / - leads leave it?

?
Picture will have to wait as I don't have the camera cable with me

So I'm on the boat. when I got her the batteries had been at rest for 23 hours after the4 engine had run the other day on the way home.

1507 SOC-100% CE (amp hrs) - 0 amps- -0.22 volts-12.71

1520 - I changed the regulator to Deep Cycle Flooded Lead Acid

1523 started engine, all loads are off

1525 from monitor SOC-100% CE-0 amps-15.9 Volts 14.21
1542 SOC-100 CE-0 amps-11.1 volts 14.24
checked voltage at battery terminal with hand held ditigal meter - both at 14.17

1553 - turned on some loads, refrig inst, nav, stero SOV 100, CE-0, amps-8.75, volts-14.06

1555 turned everything back off

1506 amps-9 volts-14.1

since the voltage is a little low I thinking of adding 0.2V to the settings

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Old 23-07-2012, 14:18   #27
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Re: battery charge readings?

Vitron BMV-600S settings

Cb battery capacity - 460 (changed it back from the 400)
Vc charged voltage - 14.0
It tail current - 2%
Tcd charged detection time - 10 min
CEF charge efficiency factor - 95%
PC Peukert exponent - 1.25
Ith current threshold - 0.10 amp
Tdt averge time to go - 3 min
DF discharge floor - 50%

rest of the settings have to do with relays and alarms and don't matter for this
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Old 23-07-2012, 14:32   #28
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Re: battery charge readings?

FWIW Don,

Trojan recommends charging T-105 batteries at 14.8 volts. Changing my ARS-4 to supply that voltage to my 4 T-105 batts has helped noticeably.

Cheers,

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Old 23-07-2012, 14:48   #29
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Re: battery charge readings?

Don,

If the alt is fed directly to the house bank then it can also "sense" there. You are sensing at the alternator and may have some voltage drop in the alternator wiring. Trojan's like higher absorption voltages and your accepted current will also climb some meaning you're charge faster.. Moving the red wire to the house bank allows the alternator to compensate for the voltage drop. The red wire is intended to sense the battery bank when system wiring allows for it. With the alt routed directly to the house you can sense there.

As I read it you do also have a bleed to the start battery the way the isolator is wired. Start battery can't back feed the house but can take current from it which won't be read by the shunt.
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Old 23-07-2012, 15:49   #30
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Re: battery charge readings?

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Don,

If the alt is fed directly to the house bank then it can also "sense" there. You are sensing at the alternator and may have some voltage drop in the alternator wiring. Trojan's like higher absorption voltages and your accepted current will also climb some meaning you're charge faster.. Moving the red wire to the house bank allows the alternator to compensate for the voltage drop. The red wire is intended to sense the battery bank when system wiring allows for it. With the alt routed directly to the house you can sense there.

As I read it you do also have a bleed to the start battery the way the isolator is wired. Start battery can't back feed the house but can take current from it which won't be read by the shunt.
OK I'll consider moving the red wire from the Alternator to the house bank. I'll have to think about more because if I do and for some reason take that bank off line I would need to remember about it. Think I'll just leave it were it is.

Yes the start battery will draw though the isolator from the house bank if it is lower. I considered this as a problem source thinking maybe the start battery was the problem. But if it was it would always be draining the house banks and it doesn't seem to. But I can turn off the start battery to take it out of the system to verify.

thanks
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