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Old 01-12-2012, 17:04   #16
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

It's just a scheme to eventually move that huge backlog of unsalable Government Motors Chevy Volts.

Heh.
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Old 01-12-2012, 17:12   #17
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
The problem with this system, is that it is in no way portable. The liquid metal batteries they are planning are grid size (think the size of a house), and cannot be scaled down to be portable because of the tempratures and insulation they need to operate.

The DOE from what I can tell is looking at finding a battery closer to the standard lead acid size we deal with on boats, with a focus on portability.
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Old 01-12-2012, 17:15   #18
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

Let's see, without government research into this crazy thing, the Internet, we wouldn't be here tonight debating this. From Wikipedia:
Quote:
The origins of the Internet reach back to research of the 1960s, commissioned by the United States government to build robust, fault-tolerant, and distributed computer networks.
Yeah government research! Yeah Internet! Yeah new battery technology! I believe Abraham Lincoln endured the same criticism when he supported the first Transcontinental Railroad. Again, Wikipedia:
Quote:
The construction and operation of the line was authorized by the Pacific Railroad Acts of 1862 and 1864 during the American Civil War. Congress supported it with 30-year U.S. government bonds and extensive land grants of government-owned land.
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Old 01-12-2012, 17:24   #19
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
The problem with this system, is that it is in no way portable. The liquid metal batteries they are planning are grid size (think the size of a house), and cannot be scaled down to be portable because of the tempratures and insulation they need to operate.

The DOE from what I can tell is looking at finding a battery closer to the standard lead acid size we deal with on boats, with a focus on portability.
This one wasn't meant to be portable. I'm thinking each 4 volt cell was rated at 350,000 amps-hr. A bit bigger than a "D" cell.
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Old 01-12-2012, 20:07   #20
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

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Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
Because the free market provides no incentive for 6 government laboratories, 5 universities, and 4 private firms to work together on a highly focused project.

If there's truly a market for it, it WILL HAPPEN.
There is NO MARKET FOR

Jello wrestling
Shrimp on treadmills
and a thousand other examples of government waste to buy votes.
Just do a search for government waste.
It is out there.

BTW, My boat has LiFePo4 battery bank, is totally off grid with solar, freezer, fridge, HAM, Spectra, WiFi, etc.
My land house has solar grid tie, low E glass etc......
I stand by my post.
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Old 01-12-2012, 21:11   #21
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

I think one of the previous posters was correct,in a way, when he said they will probably tax charging. Without any gas tax being paid by electrics, they will have to find something else to tax.
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Old 01-12-2012, 21:55   #22
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
Jello wrestling
Shrimp on treadmills

I stand by my post.
If any agency in the federal governement is actually good with money, one of the best is the NSF which funded these programs. So I followed your advice and looked into these examples.

JELLO WRESTLING

First the employee who put this together was fired for doing it. Secondly it was done in the employees off time, and paid for with their own money. But because it happened at the research base in Antartica Sen. Coburn decided it was paid for by the NSF.

this is about as fair a characterization as saying because the Catholic Church funds Loyola Universities they are paying to fund all the sex that occurs on campus. Heck at least the NSF fired those involved.

SHRIMP ON TREADMILLS
This was a $1,000 study that was working on the effect on shrimp (a billion dollar industry) of poor water quality. The treadmill was used to determine the oxygen take up speed in shrimp while they were working. Basically a stress test for shrimp.

I don't know enough about marine research, but it sounds like a reasonable area of research, and a reasonable way to get the results they needed.




Got any other examples you would like to challenge to look up, when clearly you didn't do so yourself?
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Old 01-12-2012, 22:09   #23
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
If there's truly a market for it, it WILL HAPPEN.
There is NO MARKET FOR

Jello wrestling
Shrimp on treadmills
and a thousand other examples of government waste to buy votes.
Just do a search for government waste.
It is out there.

BTW, My boat has LiFePo4 battery bank, is totally off grid with solar, freezer, fridge, HAM, Spectra, WiFi, etc.
My land house has solar grid tie, low E glass etc......
I stand by my post.
I don't disagree that the government finds way to waste money, I'm a tax payer as well, but I think that few on this board would disagree on the usefulness of batteries with 5X the capacity and 5x as cheap. I think as a previous poster pointed out that you need to put a box around the goal.

Also, technological advances often offer exponential ways to address future scientific advancement. It it quite possible that this research could yield as of yet undiscovered dividends such as smaller pacemakers and highly energy efficient nano-processors, or GPS and depth sounders that never need recharging in your lifetime.
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Old 01-12-2012, 22:36   #24
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
If any agency in the federal governement is actually good with money, one of the best is the NSF which funded these programs. So I followed your advice and looked into these examples.

JELLO WRESTLING

First the employee who put this together was fired for doing it. Secondly it was done in the employees off time, and paid for with their own money. But because it happened at the research base in Antartica Sen. Coburn decided it was paid for by the NSF.

this is about as fair a characterization as saying because the Catholic Church funds Loyola Universities they are paying to fund all the sex that occurs on campus. Heck at least the NSF fired those involved.

SHRIMP ON TREADMILLS
This was a $1,000 study that was working on the effect on shrimp (a billion dollar industry) of poor water quality. The treadmill was used to determine the oxygen take up speed in shrimp while they were working. Basically a stress test for shrimp.

I don't know enough about marine research, but it sounds like a reasonable area of research, and a reasonable way to get the results they needed.




Got any other examples you would like to challenge to look up, when clearly you didn't do so yourself?


Another thing to think about. You never know what might come out of basic research and scientific curiosity.

No one involved in the original research on lasers had any idea that they would find applications in areas like eye surgery, industrial metal cutting, communications, data storage, etc.

Those that criticize the cost of the space program don't consider the billions of dollars and lives saved by the improvement in weather forecasting enabled by weather satellites. This doesn't even count the dozens of products and technologies that were spin offs from the space program like Teflon. While not a direct spin off, the development of compact, energy efficient computers for the space program helped bring about the computers we all use to read this forum.

Sure there are occasional dumb ideas that cost money and go nowhere but I would bet that way, way more money is wasted on just a few pork barrel projects like the bridge to nowhere, airports serving no city and such than all the silly research programs put together.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:25   #25
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

Here's an interesting new development tripling the capacity of Li-ion batteries by using a crushed silicon anode.

New Silicon Batteries Outperform Typical Li-ion Chemistries

It came out of academia rather than industry, FWIW. I hope the new program is able to combine a number of these breakthroughs into something really transformative.

---------------------------

Rice University researchers have developed yet another li-ion (lithium-ion) silicon battery anode, but this time it is a crushed, porous silicon anode.

The researchers “have refined silicon-based lithium-ion technology by literally crushing their previous work to make a high-capacity, long-lived and low-cost anode material with serious commercial potential for rechargeable lithium batteries,” a Rice University press release notes.
The research was led by Sibani Lisa Biswal and Madhuri Thakur.

The new li-ion silicon battery anode lasts much longer than previous designs. It has sustained operation through 600 charge–discharge cycles at 1,000 milliamp hours per gram (this means it was charged 600 times). “This is a significant improvement over the 350 mAh/g capacity of current graphite anodes,” the press release notes, putting it “squarely in the realm of next-generation battery technology competing to lower the cost and extend the range of electric vehicles.”
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Old 15-12-2012, 17:12   #26
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

We already have the big battery breakthrough that is relevant to boating: lithium phosphate. Over the next five years, lithium phosphate batteries will become standard for all boating applications. Soon all new marine charging systems will support lithium phosphate batteries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
The problem with this system, is that it is in no way portable. The liquid metal batteries they are planning are grid size (think the size of a house), and cannot be scaled down to be portable because of the tempratures and insulation they need to operate.
Liquid metal batteries are not suitable for boats (or anything else that moves) because they are very, very heavy. They do scale down and Ambri is planning to offer a model with a 5KWh capacity. It will be cheap and will probably last for decades through tens of thousands of discharge cycles, but it will be far too heavy to consider putting on a boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
The DOE from what I can tell is looking at finding a battery closer to the standard lead acid size we deal with on boats, with a focus on portability.
That's not my understanding, but I could be wrong.
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Old 15-12-2012, 17:26   #27
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

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We already have the big battery breakthrough that is relevant to boating: lithium phosphate. Over the next five years, lithium phosphate batteries will become standard for all boating applications. Soon all new marine charging systems will support lithium phosphate batteries. (...)
Boating business is not what dictates progress. If the batteries become with a major market (say caravan homes, etc.) then they will enter the boating market like a storm too. The boating batteries market is simply too small to drive the change.

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Old 15-12-2012, 17:42   #28
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

Better yet for economies of scale, how about EVs?

2013 Motor Trend Car of the Year: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend
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Old 16-12-2012, 00:16   #29
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

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Boating business is not what dictates progress. If the batteries become with a major market (say caravan homes, etc.) then they will enter the boating market like a storm too. The boating batteries market is simply too small to drive the change.
It was not my intention to suggest that the boating market is driving the adoption of lithium phosphate batteries. It was my intention only to note that the boating market is and will be a beneficiary of lithium phosphate batteries. I apologize if I was less than clear.

Lithium phosphate batteries are so superior to lead acid batteries that I am convinced the latter will cease to be manufactured within five years. The US and EU will probably prohibit the sale of lead acid batteries over environmental considerations.
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Old 16-12-2012, 04:43   #30
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Re: Batteries 5x cheaper and 5x more power

The EU will prohibit whatever as long as the prohibition fills pockets of EU owning classes.

I have seen the new batteries replacing the older types in electric cars and wheelchairs in Sweden. Sure Swedes are relatively rich nation and can afford better (and more expensive) solutions.

X-37 has lithium ion batteries, so I think this lithium direction is progress, provided there is enough lithium to go around.

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