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Old 28-01-2015, 13:17   #106
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Mark and Cannibul, how in the world can you make jokes about such serious matters? I'm shocked, and worry about your mental health. Please call an accredited professional mental health worker and get him/her to sail with you at all times. Otherwise you may be a danger to others on the water.

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Old 28-01-2015, 13:38   #107
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Canibul, I'm surprised that you just aren't printing up some cables, ducts and fans. You could include any or all labeling while printing
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Old 28-01-2015, 14:01   #108
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
For those who judge a product by what someone decided to print on the label, I'd suggest you save yourself some time by first just going to the "Made in....." line and if you see the word China anywhere on it you can basically skip reading the rest of it. It all may, or may not, be true or relevant to what you are trying to determine.

Copper is copper. Everything else on it is wrapping and markup. Writing "Marine" or "Boat" on the wrapping is one way to increase that markup. I'm not going to scrutinize the scruples of the inscrutable, but hey, I'm just saying. These guys ship us toys with toxic paint and pet food with poison in it. Ya know? ............
100% BS

No point in arguing with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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Old 28-01-2015, 14:29   #109
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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100% BS

No point in arguing with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Lighten up Ron. They are just making lite of a beaten to death thread.
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Old 29-01-2015, 16:22   #110
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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100% BS

No point in arguing with idiots. They bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
100% bullshit? Well, sunshine, You seem to think that you're going to just keep beating people with your opinion until they agree with you. I say copper is copper and that electrons cannot read the West marine receipt in the bag with it. \

As for being called an idiot by a stinkpot driver who is mentally unable to read and compare mechanical and eletrical specs, well, it's kinda like being called ugly by a frog. yeah, I might be an idiot, as you claim.

But at least I know what locomotive and welding cables are. Copper is copper, whether you personally understand it or not.

Did you even READ what an engineer was trying to tell you here? Or were you too busy telling us all just ONE more time ( in case we missed it the first few times?) how YOU do it on YOUR boat?

Thanks, but my boat doesn't look like that.
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Old 29-01-2015, 16:37   #111
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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- wasn't this about wiring an inverter? What is the whole ducting thing now? A separate issue?

Mark
It all started out because the two Harbor Freight inverters that came with the boat are falling apart. I've already junked one of them. As I think I wrote in the initial post that started this thread, they are installed directly over the top of two of my batteries. It's six inches above them.

I just bought two new Xantrex inverters, and they are so nice and shiny and clean, I just cannot bring myself to install them in the same location above the batteries. I wanted to put the new ones inside the cabin, and out of the engine room with the batteries. The ideal location is about a 9.5 ft. cable run from the batteries.

I'm also unhappy with my new MPPT and PWM in the engine room, a foot away from a PUR 35 complete with rusty old fittings and salt water under pressure etc. So my thinking was to move the whole kit and kaboodle to an aft cabin that is quickly becoming my workshop. Make an electrical center, with the inverters, MPPT, PWM, wind, 55 amp house charger all inside the building.

Now, I'm coming around to the idea that if the problem is really the caustic fumes, maybe it would be a lot easier, faster, and cheaper to leave most of this in place and just deal with the problem from the batteries.



Looking at the international shipping costs, and 46% import duty, and insurance, and clearance costs of getting that much cable sent down
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Old 29-01-2015, 16:56   #112
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Batteries should not be putting out caustic fumes. A small amount of hydrogen maybe, but that should vent almost instantly unless you have an air-tight compartment.

I am currently sitting directly over our flooded batteries, which are in a pretty tight and small compartment, and the upholstery is exposed to whatever gases they are putting out. There are fuses, switches, shunts, and some electronics right in the compartment with them. I keep a laptop and iPad on a shelf directly above them.

Nothing shows any sign of corrosion or any other damage. The electronics have been installed in that box for 16yrs with no problem, the switches, shunts, terminals, etc are all nice and clean, and the upholstery sitting above it (on a ventilated top cover) shows no deterioration or color change or anything.

And the welding cable connected to the inverter in the next compartment over is in perfect shape.

So I think you may be over-worrying the battery ventilation. I remember you had cooked batteries before that may have caused problems. Also, the finish on the HF stuff, as well as the actual metal, may be sub-par. The watermaker stuff is probably rusty from high salt concentration leaks rather than the battery gasses.

Water vapor will do more, and faster, damage to this stuff than normal battery gassing. If it is reasonable to move these things to a dedicated area like you were suggesting, I would go that way instead. If only because it puts them together in an area that you can easily monitor.

Mark
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Old 29-01-2015, 18:41   #113
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

The number one reason not to install the inverter above the batteries is!

They are not ignition protected.

After a battery reaches 14 volts it starts emitting combustible gases, after it reaches 14.4-14.8 as flooded LA's need for proper charging the amount of gasses increases.

The inverters generate heat, this heat draws those gasses into the inverter, now if the inverters have fan assisted cooling then all the more gases. These gases are very corrosive, beyond the danger of ignition.

Now look closely at the inverters, they will have adhesive labels warning not to install in the same compartment as the batteries. So will the installation instructions state; Do not install in the same compartment as the batteries.

Think about this would you install your stereo equipment in the same environment?

As to welding cable, it is the insulation thickness, the temp rating, does it meet low smoke requirement? Most are rated 60C so you will need to increase the cable size to meet the rating as a 105C rated cable, why, because its in an engine room.

Frugal is finding the best price on what ever products that meet the needs....NOT the cheapest you can find.

Lloyd
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Old 29-01-2015, 20:00   #114
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
As Codified by By the Authority Vested By Part 5 of the United States Code § 552(a) and
Part 1 of the Code of Regulations § 51 the attached document has been duly
INCORPORATED BY REFERENCE and shall be considered legally
binding upon all citizens and residents of the United States of America.

E-9 DIRECT CURRENT (DC) ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS ON BOATS
Based on ABYC's assessment of the state of existing technology and the problems associated with achieving the
requirements of this standard, ABYC recommends compliance with this standard by August 1, 1991.
E-9.1.
E-9.2.
E-9.3.
PURPOSE
These recommended practices and engineering standards establish the requirements for the design
and installation of direct current (DC) electrical systems on boats.
SCOPE
These recommended practices and engineering standards apply to direct current (DC) electrical
systems on boats which operate at potentials of 50 volts or less.


There is some small confusion here. Yes ABYC E-9 is a standard for systems under 50 volts and yes CFR 46 adopts some of the ABYC standards as code. But there are still exceptions in 46CFR as TD indicated which overrule the ABYC standard. the tail that is ABYC does not wag the CFR dog. It's the other way around.. 46CFR is CODE in the USA for ships and inspected passenger vessels. But, it does not apply to recreational vessels in the US. Recreational vessels are covered by CFR 33, which has not adopted ABYC, yet. CFR 33 is surprisingly lax in its requirements.

I suspect the 33 CFR may be updated sometime in the future. But for now for recreational vessels in the US, it is the CODE that most of the USA boaters must comply with.
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Old 29-01-2015, 21:28   #115
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Let us not forget that "standards" like the ANSI spec for boat cable, represent a minimum acceptable standard, and that's like saying you got a D on an exam and that's just great because it is a passing grade.


With all the pleasant and creative exchange of viewpoints, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned all this able is still not anoxic copper cable. The guys who spec anoxic copper would call all the rest of this stuff mass-market junk.
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Old 29-01-2015, 23:41   #116
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Sailor Chick,

If you still hold any Professional Licenses as a dirt engineer.

I am guessing that your warranty of various of your recommendations, is worth exactly what each here has paid for...notta

I'm also guessing, that your interpretations of the various codes, and rules, are also worth, what you were paid...notta

It's one thing to add your thoughts as a member, but a whole nother, to hold yourself out as a PE, without any liability to what you say.

In the end I also doubt you are willing to warrant your interpretations of various of the maritime codes/rules, to the extent someone depends on your advice, and follows it.

??? Will you be there in a court of LAW for them?

Yea, I think not.

Lloyd



Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
There is some small confusion here. Yes ABYC E-9 is a standard for systems under 50 volts and yes CFR 46 adopts some of the ABYC standards as code. But there are still exceptions in 46CFR as TD indicated which overrule the ABYC standard. the tail that is ABYC does not wag the CFR dog. It's the other way around.. 46CFR is CODE in the USA for ships and inspected passenger vessels. But, it does not apply to recreational vessels in the US. Recreational vessels are covered by CFR 33, which has not adopted ABYC, yet. CFR 33 is surprisingly lax in its requirements.

I suspect the 33 CFR may be updated sometime in the future. But for now for recreational vessels in the US, it is the CODE that most of the USA boaters must comply with.
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Old 30-01-2015, 01:36   #117
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Lloyd,

I'm still trying to learn something. Take us through the CFR regarding recreational vessels and show how we end up having to meet ABYC recommendations on our recreational vessels to comply with federal law. You posted the ABYC boilerplate as US law. I am not ready to say you are wrong. But I would like to know how you arrived at that conclusion.

I am not saying the ABYC recommendations are no good. The ones I have read are quite sensible. But I genuinely want to know this legal trail because as someone pointed out, insurance companies like to point to ABYC as a rule. It may be important for people to know when their insurance company is holding them to a higher standard than the federal government.
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Old 30-01-2015, 02:21   #118
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Canibul, letīs get practical

Do You have space to take the whole electric story out of the engine room and some place else where the compromise is more favorable. ?
Battery is no problem...there are deep cycle SEALED batteries
No matter what type of wire.....9,5 feet distance from the batteries is an issue.
Explore all the options
From my point of few I defenitly would choose the long wire as the LAST option

Acceptable distance is 1m / 3 feet

Wire Resistance and Voltage Drop Calculator
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Old 30-01-2015, 04:01   #119
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Canibul, letīs get practical
After 100 posts now somebody wants to get practical? You can't do that on CF else somebody will whip out a code book and beat you silly with it.
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Old 30-01-2015, 06:16   #120
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
With all the pleasant and creative exchange of viewpoints, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned all this able is still not anoxic copper cable. The guys who spec anoxic copper would call all the rest of this stuff mass-market junk.
I did just that in post #96, as well as pointed out that he was using a minimum standard, not "the best material available".

Mark
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