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Old 25-01-2015, 17:07   #76
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Doesn't Gord May have something like this in his signature line: "If you can't afford to do it right the first time, how can you afford to do it right the second time?"

I like Bill's approach.
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Old 25-01-2015, 19:08   #77
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

There are few things that annoy me more than companies slapping a "marine" label on something and charging nearly twice the price and sometimes more. I am not cheap by nature either. But when wire costs more people tend to buy smaller wire. That's the bigger problem with inverter installations.

Can anyone tell me whether this cable (http://www.wireandcabletogo.com/2-0-...Cable-2KV.html) will satisfy ABYC? The CFR's quoted in this thread don't seem to be applicable to recreational boats. But many insurance companies will specify ABYC recommendations thus my reason for asking.
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Old 25-01-2015, 19:15   #78
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Quote:
For applications where flexible power leads must be installed in conduit or raceway. Motor leads.
I suppose if you want to run it in a duct...

But then, maybe not...
Quote:
90C temperature rating. Excellent impact and abrasion resistance. Resists oils, acids, alkalies, heat and flame. Flexible tinned copper stranding
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Old 25-01-2015, 19:40   #79
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Some wiring codes require single conductor wires to be run inside conduit. I don't think that applies to boats but if someone knows for sure would also appreciate the correct reference.
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Old 25-01-2015, 23:27   #80
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Some wiring codes require single conductor wires to be run inside conduit. I don't think that applies to boats but if someone knows for sure would also appreciate the correct reference.
My previous link to the cfr 46 wiring, required conduit when used with wire, but not for cable in systems over 50V. The railroad cable is rated for 2kv and has a epdm outer jacket and is tinned wire. Sounds like it exceeds marine cable ratings by a wide margin. But your not getting that marine experience for paying $7.95 a foot at your favorite marine store.
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Old 26-01-2015, 11:21   #81
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Some wiring codes require single conductor wires to be run inside conduit. I don't think that applies to boats but if someone knows for sure would also appreciate the correct reference.
I am not currently, but was for many years, ABYC certified. I do not recall any restriction on running duplex wire through conduits. There are standards to be followed as to the gauge of wire/cable that you can run in bundles. You can see that on the multiwire sizing tables. More wires running together do not allow the heat from each to dissipate so you need bigger wires in bundles.

Conduits also trap heat so you may want to factor that in as well. In general, house and commercial wiring standards are not useful in boat installations and have been misused to many owners' detriment. Just the mention of them in a boating conversation raises red flags in my mind. Good to understand the principles of electricity common to all but not to good wiring practices.
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Old 26-01-2015, 11:26   #82
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
My previous link to the cfr 46 wiring, required conduit when used with wire, but not for cable in systems over 50V. The railroad cable is rated for 2kv and has a epdm outer jacket and is tinned wire. Sounds like it exceeds marine cable ratings by a wide margin. But your not getting that marine experience for paying $7.95 a foot at your favorite marine store.
As noted above, marine standards are UL 1427. Do you know if the railroad cable meets that standard. It has far more in it than what you has been discussed in general in this thread. The standards are higher because people live in boats and may be far from help, therefore they are stricter.

The standard does not call for tinned wire to my knowledge though.

But to each his own. As boat owners you can modify your boats however you want, subject to your insurance companies and surveyors I guess.
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Old 26-01-2015, 11:29   #83
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

The quote on running the cable in conduit was from the cable manufacturer, not ABYC. It says in the cable specs, for use where conduit or raceway is required.
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Old 26-01-2015, 11:44   #84
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Correct!

Even CFR 46.183.340 for US commercial ships and inspected passenger vessels does not require tin plated wire. Code section below.

eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

Cable must be UL listed as boat cable though. This is for commercial and inspected passenger vessels. I suspect that recreational vessels don't even need that. Needless to say Yanmars wiring harness for example is just plain copper stranded wire.

Oh here's the UL listing description for boat cable. Tinned wire is not required.
Scope for UL 1426

Comparing the boat cable ul listing with the UL and ASTM listing for welding cable, shows that they are for all intents identical in scope. That as they have the same temperature and insulation rating and general construction. My guess is welding cable probably exceeds the requirements of "boat cable". Tinned wire has become the rule, but it's oddly not required by UL, or CFR 46, which references ABYC.
UL is a laugh. It is something like payola. If I where to compare to land applications I would go with the National Electric Code.
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Old 26-01-2015, 13:51   #85
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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UL is a laugh. It is something like payola. If I where to compare to land applications I would go with the National Electric Code.
Regardless of your opinion, it is the standard by which we in the USA must comply.
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Old 26-01-2015, 14:04   #86
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Regardless of your opinion, it is the standard by which we in the USA must comply.
Actually its not. UL is a certification, not a code. Code is NEC, CFR 33 and CFR 46. CFR 46 adopts much of the ABYC standards.
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Old 26-01-2015, 14:15   #87
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Regardless of your opinion, it is the standard by which we in the USA must comply.
I know, Ron! But finding their tag on 14 AWG extention cords from China, that who would trust, makes me sick. It has been a scam for at least 50 years. UL approved means nothing.
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Old 26-01-2015, 14:20   #88
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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As noted above, marine standards are UL 1427. Do you know if the railroad cable meets that standard.
Well mind you I'm only an engineer and know only a bit about stuff. but in my reading of UL1426 for marine cable and the specs that TD posted for the 2KV railroad cable, to my slightly trained eyes, it appears that railroad cable greatly exceeds the specifications for UL1426/ marine cable.

No it's not labeled per 1426, as it is constructed to a different higher UL standard. it's rated for 2000v not 600V. It has a epdm inslation layer and a second polyamide, Nylon outer jacket and it's tinned wire, which UL1426 does not require.
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Old 26-01-2015, 15:30   #89
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

If you want to be pedantic about it (and insurance companies and surveyors do) the CFR oft mentioned here (33 CFR 183.401-460) applies to recreational boats powered by gasoline (i.e. not diesel). But for gasoline powered boats:

Quote:
183.430 Conductors in circuits of less than 50 volts.

(a) Each conductor in a circuit that has a nominal voltage of less than 50 volts must:

(1) Meet the requirements of 183.435; or

(2) Meet:

(i) The insulating material temperature rating requirements of SAE Standard J378; and

(ii) SAE Standard J1127, or SAE Standard 1128.
So for 12V or 24V battery cables it can be U/L 1426 wire (called out in paragraph 435) or it can be some other type of wire meeting certain temperature and physical characteristics (i.e. plain old battery cable used in cars and trucks). If I recall J378 is 105C rated wire but I am not 100% certain. Again, you have to pay $$ to see the SAE standards too.

There is a good set of links here:

Federal Regulations

If anyone knows about CFRs that apply to diesel powered recreational boats I would be interested to learn about that.
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Old 26-01-2015, 20:07   #90
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

By Authority Of
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Legally Binding Document
By the Authority Vested By Part 5 of the United States Code 552(a) and
Part 1 of the Code of Regulations 51 the attached document has been duly
INCORPORATED BY REFERENCE and shall be considered legally
binding upon all citizens and residents of the United States of America.
HEED THIS NOTICE: Criminal penalties may apply for noncompliance.

Document Name: E-09 Direct Current Systems (DC) Electrical Systems on Boats

CFR Section(s): 46 CFR 183.340(a)(4)

Standards Body: American Boat & Yacht Counsel

Official Incorporator:
THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
OFFICE OF THE FEDERAL REGISTER
WASHINGTON, D.C.

1990 as adopted

Updates apply, and are in a different text.

Lloyd


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Actually its not. UL is a certification, not a code. Code is NEC, CFR 33 and CFR 46. CFR 46 adopts much of the ABYC standards.
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