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Old 30-01-2015, 21:15   #136
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

So in essence, you Sailor Chic will certify, that all train/welding cable will meet all the requirements, of the Boat/Marine Market.

You as a PE will stand behind that certification, for all readers on this forum???

Lloyd





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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
LOL, So gee, reading the SAE J1127 battery cable standard, which is one of two SAE standards allowed by 33 CFR 183.430, I don't see where the 2kv locomotive cable does not meet that standard. Pretty sure some welding cable (but not all) comply with J1127 or 1128 also. Oh the inner insulation layer of epdm may not meet the oil test, but the outer insulation layer would pass it with flying colors.

Just for fun I read SAE J1128 too. Minor differences. Then I grabbed IEEE 45, boy that is a bit dry.

But lets say that 2kv locomotive cable did not meet J1128 or J1127, it still meets IEEE 45, so its good.


I try not to disappointing.

Like I've said, I've read a bit of CFR 33 including 183.430. I keep copies of them and many more on my PC. You're going to need to try harder Lloyd.

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Old 30-01-2015, 21:40   #137
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
So in essence, you Sailor Chic will certify, that all train/welding cable will meet all the requirements, of the Boat/Marine Market.

You as a PE will stand behind that certification, for all readers on this forum???

Lloyd
LOL, your so cute. Of course not. I'm not talking about all train and welding cable and codes differ from country to country. What works in the USA, may not meet EU or UK or other countries. Heck even with the same building codes, what works and is accepted in one city will not be acceptable in another and its the same darn code. I run into that ALL the time.

SO no way no how would I ever say that anything meets all codes everywhere, because I'm pretty sure nothing meets all codes everywhere.

All I'm saying is in my reading of CFR33, SAE j1127, 1128 and IEEE 45, that the 2kv locomotive cable that TD posted, looks in my very humble opinion, to meet SAE 1127 and or IEEE 45. I myself would have no problems at all installing it on my boat between battery and inverters.

If you disagree, that the 2KV locomotive cable does not meet SAE 1127, 1128 and/or IEEE 45, please tell me why it does not.
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Old 31-01-2015, 00:06   #138
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Ok, so you recommend something other then the UL 1426, is just as good.

You imply that we need not worry about 1426, and can use various of the other cables. You implicitly imply are just as good.

But you won't warranty, any of your recommendations.

You lead people to choose something else, at their own risk, if they are capable of matching your recommendations to the already approved existing requirements.

So then I can only assume, that you advocate buyer beware, if they want something other than what is already warranted as the right cable.

Lloyd

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
LOL, your so cute. Of course not. I'm not talking about all train and welding cable and codes differ from country to country. What works in the USA, may not meet EU or UK or other countries. Heck even with the same building codes, what works and is accepted in one city will not be acceptable in another and its the same darn code. I run into that ALL the time.

SO no way no how would I ever say that anything meets all codes everywhere, because I'm pretty sure nothing meets all codes everywhere.

All I'm saying is in my reading of CFR33, SAE j1127, 1128 and IEEE 45, that the 2kv locomotive cable that TD posted, looks in my very humble opinion, to meet SAE 1127 and or IEEE 45. I myself would have no problems at all installing it on my boat between battery and inverters.

If you disagree, that the 2KV locomotive cable does not meet SAE 1127, 1128 and/or IEEE 45, please tell me why it does not.
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Old 31-01-2015, 02:01   #139
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by Bill_E View Post
I'm in the process of doing some fairly serious rewiring and am curious about ExMaggieDrum's comments about measuring and ordering cables. I'm not 100% sure that I can get really good crimps whereas I'm kind of hoping that Genuinedealz can get excellent crimps and shrink tubing in their shop. I can probably live with 1-5 inches of excess length but obviously, 1 inch too short could be a killer. I'm planning to run small wires where I want the cables to go, measure them and order to that length. (Measure several times!!) Anyone with experience and/or suggestions about ordering custom made cables in 4/0 to 6 AWG diameters?

Bill
Murphy’s law says that you are forces to put the log in the wrong direction. In both ends. Therefore you have to make a turn on the cable and that can’t begin directly since there is an insulation tube that stops that. And a 67 mm² cable need some radius to turn. Both of these things is increasing cable length by several cm, perhaps even dm. This takes you to the electrician worst problem, the cable is too short on both ends. You may be able to move the cable so that it is just too short on one end, but that does not make any happy.


For comparison:
www.svb.de in Germany sells a 70 mm² cable for € 15.90 per meter.
A 70 mm² log costs € 7.90 and crimp it costs € 4.90.
All prices includes 19% VAT.
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Old 31-01-2015, 07:48   #140
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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............This takes you to the electrician worst problem, the cable is too short on both ends. You may be able to move the cable so that it is just too short on one end, but that does not make any happy..
That's when you break out your wire stretcher.

Instead of trying to measure a cable run with a measuring tape, pull a piece of heavy string or even 1/2" line from terminal to terminal, through the conduit or raceway or however you will route the cable. Mark both ends, then pull it out, stretch it out and measure between the marks. This is the length of cable you need. This works for hose as well.

If you have a long piece of string or line, you can pull it through, mark it, and pull it through further until you have both marks and can measure. Leave the line in place and you have something to pull the cable with once you get it.
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Old 31-01-2015, 08:13   #141
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

If you really don't have the room to deal with just ordering an extra foot in length, and you have a long or circuitous run, use some hose or tubing approximately the same diameter of the wire you need to run to make the measurement. String will still come up short because it doesn't take into account the extra bend radii or sag between supports.

However, it is difficult to imagine a run so precisely tight that you couldn't just order a foot extra to be on the safe side.

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Old 31-01-2015, 10:21   #142
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Ok, so you recommend something other then the UL 1426, is just as good.

You imply that we need not worry about 1426, and can use various of the other cables. You implicitly imply are just as good.

Lloyd
Your right Lloyd, I'm completely ignoring UL 1426. Because UL1426 is a requirement for cable over 50V, per 33CFR 183.435. Now your right again that 33 CFR 180.430, says wire shall comply with 183.435, OR... See the or after the listing. Here it is below.

183.430 Conductors in circuits of less than 50 volts. (a) Each conductor in a circuit that has a nominal voltage of less than 50 volts must:
(1) Meet the requirements of § 183.435; or <--- (there it is)
(2) Meet:
(i) The insulating material temperature rating requirements of SAE Standard J378; and
(ii) SAE Standard J1127, or SAE Standard 1128.

So the wire needs to meet 183.435 which lists UL1426, or it can meet SAE J1127 or J1128. SAE is society of automotive engineers. So plain automotive cable will work just fine and dandy under CFR33 183.430.

BTW SAE standards have been adopted under CFR they generally cover automotive, aircraft and spaceships. Odds are its good enough for boats too.

So yes I am ignoring UL1426 completely because it's not the only standard that works for boat wiring below 50V in recreational boats. This is not my interpretation of the code. I'm just following what the code says.

So I say again, please show me where the 2kv locomotive cable will not meet 33CFR 183.430. for cable under 50V.

Mind you I would fight any insurance or survey requirement that said I could not use wiring that meets SAE J1127 or J1128. UL1426 is not the only game in town.
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Old 31-01-2015, 14:38   #143
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Ron, WADR, nonsense.

Most folks know Maine Sail's background and credentials. Real world.

Wrong response on your part.
Dude - What is your problem?

I'll respond however I want and I won't be concerned with your opinion!
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Old 31-01-2015, 15:22   #144
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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If mounting inverter in multi-purpose area/ locker, just make sure you don't restrict air flow through it with anything like fowl weather gear. The inverter can quickly over heat and may result in non- recoverable failure.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
" fowl weather gear?" look out duck dynasty...
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Old 31-01-2015, 15:36   #145
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Dude - What is your problem?

I'll respond however I want and I won't be concerned with your opinion!

And all along I thought your response was to Colemj......
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Old 31-01-2015, 19:41   #146
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

By default a UL 1426 rating meets the needs of anything rated less the 65 volts, on board a marine installation.

An SAE wire is about 12% less CM (circular Mil area) of an UL 1426. So not only will you will need to account for that in determining the wire size, that means you can't use a Boat cable voltage loss calculator, native. But must add a factor for SAE.

Marine UL lugs and crimp connectors are based on UL 1426 rated CM, so the smaller CM of the wire, and the UL size of the lug/crimp connectors will not fit the wire size, nor the calibrated crimp tool..

SAE wire lugs are open ended, not closed ended as are the marine lugs.

SAE wire is typically, bare copper, not silver tinned, so corrosion in a wet salt marine enviroment will create potential problems, because no matter how good you use heat shrink tube, it's no substitute fore a closed end lug.

Not all SAE wire is rated for fuel, wet and corrosive environments. Most SAE wire is type II stranded, and a boat needs Type three stranded, for vibration.

I can go on and on.

But I won't, there are certain situations where an SAE cable could work, if one hires an engineer to ensure the same, but I am guessing that by the time you pay the engineer, it would likely be cheaper to buy the UL listed boat cable.

Lloyd



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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Your right Lloyd, I'm completely ignoring UL 1426. Because UL1426 is a requirement for cable over 50V, per 33CFR 183.435. Now your right again that 33 CFR 180.430, says wire shall comply with 183.435, OR... See the or after the listing. Here it is below.

183.430 Conductors in circuits of less than 50 volts. (a) Each conductor in a circuit that has a nominal voltage of less than 50 volts must:
(1) Meet the requirements of § 183.435; or <--- (there it is)
(2) Meet:
(i) The insulating material temperature rating requirements of SAE Standard J378; and
(ii) SAE Standard J1127, or SAE Standard 1128.

So the wire needs to meet 183.435 which lists UL1426, or it can meet SAE J1127 or J1128. SAE is society of automotive engineers. So plain automotive cable will work just fine and dandy under CFR33 183.430.

BTW SAE standards have been adopted under CFR they generally cover automotive, aircraft and spaceships. Odds are its good enough for boats too.

So yes I am ignoring UL1426 completely because it's not the only standard that works for boat wiring below 50V in recreational boats. This is not my interpretation of the code. I'm just following what the code says.

So I say again, please show me where the 2kv locomotive cable will not meet 33CFR 183.430. for cable under 50V.

Mind you I would fight any insurance or survey requirement that said I could not use wiring that meets SAE J1127 or J1128. UL1426 is not the only game in town.
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Old 31-01-2015, 19:50   #147
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Dude - What is your problem?

I'll respond however I want and I won't be concerned with your opinion!

Not my problem. Perhaps yours for "attacking" Maine Sail's credentials.

That's all. Continue to respond, most of what you post is very good.
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Old 31-01-2015, 22:32   #148
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
By default a UL 1426 rating meets the needs of anything rated less the 65 volts, on board a marine installation.

An SAE wire is about 12% less CM (circular Mil area) of an UL 1426. So not only will you will need to account for that in determining the wire size, that means you can't use a Boat cable voltage loss calculator, native. But must add a factor for SAE.

Marine UL lugs and crimp connectors are based on UL 1426 rated CM, so the smaller CM of the wire, and the UL size of the lug/crimp connectors will not fit the wire size, nor the calibrated crimp tool..

SAE wire lugs are open ended, not closed ended as are the marine lugs.

SAE wire is typically, bare copper, not silver tinned, so corrosion in a wet salt marine enviroment will create potential problems, because no matter how good you use heat shrink tube, it's no substitute fore a closed end lug.


Lloyd

Hum, so I've read SAE J1127 and UL1426. Guess what I found in UL1426. Under general, section 1.2 listed below:

1.2 The construction and performance details of
single-conductor 50-volt cables are outlined in the
Society of Automotive Engineers, Inc. Standard for
Battery Cable (SAE J1127), Low-Tension Primary
Cable (SAE J 1128), and Recommended Practice for
Marine-Engine Wiring (SAE J378b)

Oh look, 50V cable in UL1426 is constructed to SAE standards. Huh. How cool is that. Pretty neat.

BTW, I could not find a tinned wire requirement in UL1426. Could you post the section from UL1426 that lists a tinned wire requirement. For the life of me, I just can't find it.

In my very limited reading it seems that both UL1426 and SAE J1127 wire is constructed to AWG sizing, least wise in the good ol' USA.

Now silly me, all the crimp connections I find in automotive stores are closed end type, but that might just be a California thingy.

The main difference in UL1426 is it has a few more tests on the insulation then SAE J1127. UL1426 is really about testing the insulation. But the wiring properties look to be the same or pretty darn close anyway. Really I could not find a CM listing for 50V wire under UL1426.
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Old 01-02-2015, 00:53   #149
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Sailor Chic

I guess you are the winner.

How does that make you feel?

Now I'm guessing that everyone will now refute the boat cable.

For the sailorchick cable.

Whatever standard that is?

you are the winner, and, so is every of your followers.

Good Luck.

Lloyd




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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Hum, so I've read SAE J1127 and UL1426. Guess what I found in UL1426. Under general, section 1.2 listed below:

1.2 The construction and performance details of
single-conductor 50-volt cables are outlined in the
Society of Automotive Engineers, Inc. Standard for
Battery Cable (SAE J1127), Low-Tension Primary
Cable (SAE J 1128), and Recommended Practice for
Marine-Engine Wiring (SAE J378b)

Oh look, 50V cable in UL1426 is constructed to SAE standards. Huh. How cool is that. Pretty neat.

BTW, I could not find a tinned wire requirement in UL1426. Could you post the section from UL1426 that lists a tinned wire requirement. For the life of me, I just can't find it.

In my very limited reading it seems that both UL1426 and SAE J1127 wire is constructed to AWG sizing, least wise in the good ol' USA.

Now silly me, all the crimp connections I find in automotive stores are closed end type, but that might just be a California thingy.

The main difference in UL1426 is it has a few more tests on the insulation then SAE J1127. UL1426 is really about testing the insulation. But the wiring properties look to be the same or pretty darn close anyway. Really I could not find a CM listing for 50V wire under UL1426.
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:41   #150
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Re: Batt To Inverter Cable Length Question

Yea it's whoever wins that matters, not providing good information to someone who asks.
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