Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-09-2016, 11:58   #46
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 1,502
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
I just spent the past six weeks sailing our boat from San Francisco to British Columbia. Maine Sail and I have been proponents of his design for many, many years. I have a Link 2000 that does both batteries, but we kept our switch on the house bank all six weeks, we have a combiner, with the alternator output to the house bank. I did a LOT of motoring: 161.34 hours of it.

The system is flawless.

It's nonsense to deal with saying that coulomb counters don't work with this system.

No one should use BOTH on their 1-2-B switches, unless charging sources are present and ON. AND their ACR/combiner is broken.

This is so simple it boggles my mind every time this discussion arises.
First of all, congrats on the successful voyage Stu. Hope you had a great time.

Some corrections:

1. Compass Marine did not "design" the ACR.

2. Every battery and charging scheme has several "flaws" that have been discussed here and through other threads ad nauseum.

3. On most cruising boats, any combination of solar, wind, and shore power chargers may always be "ON", so being on "BOTH" most or all of the time may very well be relevant.

On my boat, the house bank is split in two via a 1/2/Both/Off switch for trouble shooting and servicing isolation purposes. Otherwise, it is always in the BOTH position, and this is very relevant and desirable for a number of reasons.

4. Some boats, including mine, have only a house bank and no starter. It is not equipped with an ACR, and in fact, there is absolutely no use for one.

(For those who are not always connected to a charge source and monitoring their batteries regularly, I recommend having an ACR or 1/2/B/Off switch.)

5. It is great that you like the way that your boat is set up. It does not make other set-ups less relevant when they serve their owner's needs better.

6. In all cases, when batteries are combined by manual or automatic methods, the battery monitor data does not accurately reflect what is happening in the VESSEL, only the HOUSE BANK. If this is all one is interested in, it may be of little consequence.

However, if one is interested in VESSEL battery and charge data, vs just HOUSE battery data, manual or auto combining has an impact, in some cases more than others, depending how batteries are wired, loaded, charged, and switched.
__________________

__________________
Rod Brandon
Sheen Marine
ramblinrod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-09-2016, 13:12   #47
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C.
Boat: CS27
Posts: 1,550
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post

6. In all cases, when batteries are combined by manual or automatic methods, the battery monitor data does not accurately reflect what is happening in the VESSEL, only the HOUSE BANK. If this is all one is interested in, it may be of little consequence.
Combined or not, automatically or manually, all a battery monitor is designed to do is monitor the house bank. They do this very well.

Some also give voltage only of the start/auxiliary battery - all that is necessary for a non cycled battery.
__________________

__________________
mitiempo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-09-2016, 14:22   #48
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 1,502
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Combined or not, automatically or manually, all a battery monitor is designed to do is monitor the house bank. They do this very well.

Some also give voltage only of the start/auxiliary battery - all that is necessary for a non cycled battery.
As soon as one starts combining other batteries in and out by any method, this is affecting where the current from charge sources, loads, and batteries are going.

The battery monitor data still only represents what is going on with the house bank ONLY.

It may be working absolutely correctly and as designed, but it simply doesn't know what has gone into or been drawn from the alternate combined batteries.

If one is using a single monitor and combining batteries in and out, they simply aren't getting the Ahr in, out, SOC, and capacity remaining for all batteries, because the monitor is not capable of providing it, as everyone is stating again and again and again, and to which there has been absolutely no argument from anyone, and is exactly my original and continued point.

If the start battery is drawing all of the energy the solar and wind charging system can deliver, the battery monitor has no clue, it doesn't care about anything but the house bank. That is was only designed to do this is of little relevance, if one want to know this.
__________________
Rod Brandon
Sheen Marine
ramblinrod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-09-2016, 14:55   #49
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 5,572
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

The only reason I can see a battery switch is to the start the engine with the house bank if the starter battery died. Charging the house with the solar is all you need. You could run a lead to the starting battery with a blocking diode. All the solar will see is the house but will charge the starter battery. Seems like over thinking
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-09-2016, 19:54   #50
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 11,937
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
First of all, congrats on the successful voyage Stu. Hope you had a great time.

Some corrections:

1. Compass Marine did not "design" the ACR.

2. Every battery and charging scheme has several "flaws" that have been discussed here and through other threads ad nauseum.

3. On most cruising boats, any combination of solar, wind, and shore power chargers may always be "ON", so being on "BOTH" most or all of the time may very well be relevant.

On my boat, the house bank is split in two via a 1/2/Both/Off switch for trouble shooting and servicing isolation purposes. Otherwise, it is always in the BOTH position, and this is very relevant and desirable for a number of reasons.

4. Some boats, including mine, have only a house bank and no starter. It is not equipped with an ACR, and in fact, there is absolutely no use for one.

(For those who are not always connected to a charge source and monitoring their batteries regularly, I recommend having an ACR or 1/2/B/Off switch.)

5. It is great that you like the way that your boat is set up. It does not make other set-ups less relevant when they serve their owner's needs better.

6. In all cases, when batteries are combined by manual or automatic methods, the battery monitor data does not accurately reflect what is happening in the VESSEL, only the HOUSE BANK. If this is all one is interested in, it may be of little consequence.

However, if one is interested in VESSEL battery and charge data, vs just HOUSE battery data, manual or auto combining has an impact, in some cases more than others, depending how batteries are wired, loaded, charged, and switched.
RR

I think you trying make this a lot.more.complicated than it is or needs to be. Certainly one can conceive of systems where odd solutions are required but for the vast, overwhelming majority of the boaters the system described by Maine Sail, Stu and myself makes the most sense.

With very, very few exceptions boats need to start an engine (which uses a tiny fraction of a battery's capacity) and run house loads (which can use a lot of amp hours unless the boat has almost no electronics, fridge, AP, etc.). So the need is to monitor the batteries that are used and the monitoring the "system" is not important. If you have starting problems it's very obvious and you address the additional draw from the starting system. No need to micro monitor the start battery.

By the way Stu was not saying Maine Sail designed the ACR, he was I believe referring to the fact that MS advocates the wiring design under discussion.
__________________
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2016, 09:38   #51
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,105
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
RR

I think you trying make this a lot.more.complicated than it is or needs to be. Certainly one can conceive of systems where odd solutions are required but for the vast, overwhelming majority of the boaters the system described by Maine Sail, Stu and myself makes the most sense.

With very, very few exceptions boats need to start an engine (which uses a tiny fraction of a battery's capacity) and run house loads (which can use a lot of amp hours unless the boat has almost no electronics, fridge, AP, etc.). So the need is to monitor the batteries that are used and the monitoring the "system" is not important. If you have starting problems it's very obvious and you address the additional draw from the starting system. No need to micro monitor the start battery.

By the way Stu was not saying Maine Sail designed the ACR, he was I believe referring to the fact that MS advocates the wiring design under discussion.
Thanks, Skip, yes, that's pretty much it.

Rod, thanks, we did have a great time.

Look, if you have multiple house banks and other stuff, and for others who like (gasp!) to run their AO to their start bank (UK sailors?), keep it complicated.

But, please, don't complicate the matter by saying coulomb counters don't work because you have installed a whacky or complicated system that the cc's weren't designed to read and then bash them because of your own electrical system. That's simply bassackwards.

CC's work fine to monitor a single house bank. That's what they were made for. Yeah, a Link 2000 can do both, and I have one, but I never bother with the start bank ahs, because, like everyone who knows says what skip just did.

KISS.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2016, 11:16   #52
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 1,502
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Thanks, Skip, yes, that's pretty much it.

Rod, thanks, we did have a great time.

Look, if you have multiple house banks and other stuff, and for others who like (gasp!) to run their AO to their start bank (UK sailors?), keep it complicated.

But, please, don't complicate the matter by saying coulomb counters don't work because you have installed a whacky or complicated system that the cc's weren't designed to read and then bash them because of your own electrical system. That's simply bassackwards.

CC's work fine to monitor a single house bank. That's what they were made for. Yeah, a Link 2000 can do both, and I have one, but I never bother with the start bank ahs, because, like everyone who knows says what skip just did.

KISS.
Hey Stu,

I do not install whacky, complicated systems.

For many, I recommend the system configuration you have.

For those who do not have sufficient space for the size of house bank needed, depending on other circumstances, I may recommend all loads including the starter be run off the house bank, and the start battery and combiner device be omitted.

This is the simplest system, albeit not
the most fail safe, one can have.

Additionally, the battery monitor reports Ahrs in, out, SOC, and remaining
capacity from all loads and sources. Not the case when a start battery and combiner are used. Current in and out of the start battery is not reported.

While I don't recommend it, based on many threads on this forum, and what I discover on boats I inspect, a lot of people do connect additional loads to their start batteries. In this case the data reported by the CC does not accurately represent what is happening on the boat.

Before you repeat what others have repeated many times,
I fully understand that these devices were not designed to deal with this, and they don't.
__________________
Rod Brandon
Sheen Marine
ramblinrod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2016, 17:28   #53
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 11,937
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

Hey Stu,

I do not install whacky, complicated systems.

For many, I recommend the system configuration you have.

For those who do not have sufficient space for the size of house bank needed, depending on other circumstances, I may recommend all loads including the starter be run off the house bank, and the start battery and combiner device be omitted.

I'm sure you realize the potential risks with this setup. It is all too easy to run down your only battery system leaving you with no way to start the engine. Maybe ok for someone with an outboard that will hand crank but for a boat with an engine with no way to manual start this could be a giant problem. I cruised for a couple of years with a system like this and was left unable to crank the engine a few times. Usually it was inconvenient but once it almost cost me the boat.

This is the simplest system, albeit not
the most fail safe, one can have.

Simple but one with serious potential downside.

Additionally, the battery monitor reports Ahrs in, out, SOC, and remaining
capacity from all loads and sources. Not the case when a start battery and combiner are used. Current in and out of the start battery is not reported.

While I don't recommend it, based on many threads on this forum, and what I discover on boats I inspect, a lot of people do connect additional loads to their start batteries. In this case the data reported by the CC does not accurately represent what is happening on the boat.

It's clear we all understand that a standard monitor doesn't count couloumbs to a start battery. But if someone wires a bunch of stuff to the start battery the correct solution is to change the wiring not find a way to monitor a flawed system.

Reminds me of a sign one my profs had one the wall when I was in engineering school. It's hard to build something totally foolproof because the fools are so ingenious.


Before you repeat what others have repeated many times,
I fully understand that these devices were not designed to deal with this, and they don't.

And they shouldn't need to.
__________________
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2016, 17:56   #54
Senior Cruiser
 
S/V Antares's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis, Bahamas
Boat: 1983 Gulfstar 36
Posts: 1,243
Images: 1
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

Perhaps this is off the Solar 1-2 switch post but I have been using an echocharger for the Start battery and only 1 house bank for ten years with no issues. I hooked up the new solar panels to the controller through a breaker ....the controller to the battery is fused to the rated amps

I drink too much to remember to switch 1 / 2 on the battery switch. And why ?

I can start the engine

If the voltage drops too far on a half bank it will likely drop on the second.

Just plan your 1 bank to accommodate the need until you can charge ..engine or solar. KISS
__________________
Will & Muffin
Lucy the dog

"Yes, well.. perhaps some more wine" (Julia Child)
S/V Antares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 07:06   #55
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 1,502
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V Antares View Post
Perhaps this is off the Solar 1-2 switch post but I have been using an echocharger for the Start battery and only 1 house bank for ten years with no issues. I hooked up the new solar panels to the controller through a breaker ....the controller to the battery is fused to the rated amps

I drink too much to remember to switch 1 / 2 on the battery switch. And why ?

I can start the engine

If the voltage drops too far on a half bank it will likely drop on the second.

Just plan your 1 bank to accommodate the need until you can charge ..engine or solar. KISS
This arrangement is valid if one also has the 1/2/B/Off switch, so that if for whatever reason the start battery dies, the engine can be started from the house bank. An ACR is already equipped with the ability to manually over-ride, so I recommend those instead of an echo-charger for charging the start battery.
__________________
Rod Brandon
Sheen Marine
ramblinrod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2016, 08:22   #56
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 1,502
Re: Basic Solar Wiring - 1 2 Both Switch

Responses in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Hey Stu,

I do not install whacky, complicated systems.

For many, I recommend the system configuration you have.

For those who do not have sufficient space for the size of house bank needed, depending on other circumstances, I may recommend all loads including the starter be run off the house bank, and the start battery and combiner device be omitted.

I'm sure you realize the potential risks with this setup.

Of course, as stated in this post and many others in this thread, I have declared that it is not the most "failsafe" system.

It is all too easy to run down your only battery system leaving you with no way to start the engine.

Maybe ok for someone with an outboard that will hand crank but for a boat with an engine with no way to manual start this could be a giant problem.

Giant? Easily solved by carrying a simple L-ion booster pack, which has many other great uses aboard.[/COLOR]

I cruised for a couple of years with a system like this and was left unable to crank the engine a few times. Usually it was inconvenient but once it almost cost me the boat.


This can happen. If one leaves wind, solar, and/or shore power charge sources on, uses that great battery monitor, and uses the auxiliary charge before they kill their batteries, no issue.

My current boat came with a house bank, of 2 Rolls Royce deep cycles, split by a 1/2B/Off switch, and no start battery.

When they died (12 years old), I changed this to a more failsafe system, adding a third battery to the house bank and a start battery, isolated by the 1/2B/Off switch.

Despite adding the third house battery, I found my capacity was still a little shy, and that my start battery was just sitting there, doing nothing 99% of the time. Because I monitor my batteries closely, I replaced the start battery with another house. No problems. 4 years ago. (In my case I have a manual start crank for the engine. Used it once to verify I could. I also carry a booster pack.)


This is the simplest system, albeit not
the most fail safe, one can have.

Simple but one with serious potential downside.

Less failsafe on its own, but easily resolved as indicated above.

Additionally, the battery monitor reports Ahrs in, out, SOC, and remaining
capacity from all loads and sources. Not the case when a start battery and combiner are used. Current in and out of the start battery is not reported.

While I don't recommend it, based on many threads on this forum, and what I discover on boats I inspect, a lot of people do connect additional loads to their start batteries. In this case the data reported by the CC does not accurately represent what is happening on the boat.

It's clear we all understand that a standard monitor doesn't count couloumbs to a start battery. But if someone wires a bunch of stuff to the start battery the correct solution is to change the wiring not find a way to monitor a flawed system.

If the boat owner wishes to install a battery monitor, but doesn't wish to move loads from the start battery to the house, it is what it is.

Reminds me of a sign one my profs had one the wall when I was in engineering school. It's hard to build something totally foolproof because the fools are so ingenious.


Yup

Before you repeat what others have repeated many times,
I fully understand that these devices were not designed to deal with this, and they don't.

And they shouldn't need to.

And iPhones don't need to have tactile feedback keyboards. People could type on them much better if they did, but they are not designed to have it, so they don't.
__________________

__________________
Rod Brandon
Sheen Marine
ramblinrod is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
solar, wiring

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wiring in solar w a neg battery switch jbinbi Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 0 14-04-2016 16:04
Wiring up a basic solar system bcripps Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 10 07-03-2016 05:54
Wiring solar into Blue Sea switch. dnimigon Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 2 17-02-2016 09:52
Crew Available: Pracical degree qualified engineer and professional cook couple, both mid 40s. Both squirty34 Crew Archives 0 17-11-2015 13:34
Switch battery pos or both pos and neg mjsrebin Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 11 20-06-2014 20:46


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:37.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.