Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

[ebaugh]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

30 amps isn't much. Are you sure about that number?

if you push the high cell too much it all translates to heat since there are no more electrons to move.....

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

At this point in time I personally would not want my safety and boat dependent on the proper functioning of a battery monitoring system. Stuff just goes wrong all the time on a boat. Yes, there are potential problems with LA batteries, but their problems and pitfalls are well understood and you can use them without sophisticated electronics and monitoring if you need or want to. Yes, Boeing was using different chemistry that is inherently more dangerous, but even they couldn't get the BMS correct, apparently. I strongly suspect we will all be using different battery technology onboard eventually, but I won't be using it until it is considered safe enough to be selling to any Joe at WalMart, like LA batteries. Also, despite all the pooh pooing by lithium fanboys, I strongly suspect your insurance carrier would find any battery out of the ordinary a serious problem if there was any sort of claim. Think of it this way, if your boat's insurance survey indicated you had a kerosene stove and afterwards you changed it to propane and blew up the boat, do you think your insurance company would say "no problem!"

This is a very misleading statement to make and full of supposition and fear mongering without any reference to facts.

Lets break your arguments down

I personally would not want my safety and boat dependent on the proper functioning of a battery monitoring system. Stuff just goes wrong all the time on a boat.

Given you have advanced no safety data, just what are taking about, BMS systems are there to protect the battery life. The cell will damaged by overcharging but LiFe doers not exhibit thermal runaeway. LA batteries can explode under certain fault situations!!.

Yes, there are potential problems with LA batteries, but their problems and pitfalls are well understood and you can use them without sophisticated electronics and monitoring if you need or want to.

Given the number of failed AGMs and others I ve seen I would dispute that people understand LA at all. And use them without sophisciated electronics, Have you looked at a alternator regulator recently, have you looked at a LA smart charger.!!! ( or a MPPT controller ) ... please . I can charge LI with a simple CC charger with voltage cutoff

Yes, Boeing was using different chemistry that is inherently more dangerous, but even they couldn't get the BMS correct, apparently. I strongly suspect we will all be using different battery technology onboard eventually, but I won't be using it until it is considered safe enough to be selling to any Joe at WalMart, like LA batteries.

You nor the next guy has actually any real knowledge of what happened on the dreamliner, its already been misreported as a cabin smoke.

You will find Li all over Wal-Mart in every drill . cordless tools, phones, computers, etc. Today there are several big brand industrial batteries using LiFe , such a Genasun, Mastervolt, etc LiFerrous is everwhere for example heres it been worn around your waist LibertyPak

Also, despite all the pooh pooing by lithium fanboys, I strongly suspect your insurance carrier would find any battery out of the ordinary a serious problem if there was any sort of claim.

Merely inform your insurance company then. Nones suggesting hoodwinking them. I suspect it will be a non event.

Li is mainstream technology, its just us boaters have electrical systems out of the 90s, the 1890s . This thread and others is a slow process of educating potential users to its advantages. If you have specific data spit it out , otherwise just sit and listen.

Dave

[Kettlewell]

This thread and others is a slow process of educating potential users to its advantages. If you have specific data spit it out , otherwise just sit and listen.

In other words, only your opinion counts and everyone with another opinion should shut up.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

In other words, only your opinion counts and everyone with another opinion should shut up.

No thats not what I said, If someone has real data on safety that concerns them, then contribute, Otherwise listen to people actually using the things and reporting their experiences . Otherwise you are just telling bogeyman stories to frighten small children.

My information and that of people designing and using these batteries isnt opinion, its merely observations, or reported data or techniques
Dave

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No thats not what I said, If someone has real data on safety that concerns them, then contribute, Otherwise listen to people actually using the things and reporting their experiences . Otherwise you are just telling bogeyman stories to frighten small children.

My information and that of people designing and using these batteries isnt opinion, its merely observations, or reported data or techniques
Dave

I spoke to a broker for Markel Ins, in re Yacht Policy and Li-Ion. He said a qualified yes for a factory install, expect the underwriters to have the surveyor report, but no to after market install.

Lloyd

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

I spoke to a broker for Markel Ins, in re Yacht Policy and Li-Ion. He said a qualified yes for a factory install, expect the underwriters to have the surveyor report, but no to after market install.

Lloyd

That is the reason I only carry liability (and being 5X cheaper), some insurance company telling me my install isn't acceptable yet some yard's install with less overall experience than me is OK. But then I didn't have anything other than liability because they won't insure single handers and also dictate where and when you can cruise.

[Lagoon4us]

So if in the event of a fire directly attributable to a LiFePO4 installation where it's owner installed your not covered? I can live with that.

Wonder if anchor choice etc etc comes under same cloud??

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

I spoke to a broker for Markel Ins, in re Yacht Policy and Li-Ion. He said a qualified yes for a factory install, expect the underwriters to have the surveyor report, but no to after market install.

Lloyd

That's interesting. My insurers didn't have a clue.

Dave

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

That's interesting. My insurers didn't have a clue.

Dave

I guess it would depend in what negative air the question was put to a possibly ignorant, to the technology, broker. I'll ask the same of GENERALI through our broker of course.

[familycruisers]

Coming from the RC application of these battery technologies LiFePO4 are about the safest battery out there. Crash them, cells open up, no flame. Not the same with LiPo.
I want to try and get a group buy from China together. Makes the shipping more reasonable. Dewalt has been using LiFEPO4 for a very long time.

[Kettlewell]

Otherwise listen to people actually using the things and reporting their experiences . Otherwise you are just telling bogeyman stories to frighten small children.

Nice view from atop that pedestal? Cheers!

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

That is the reason I only carry liability (and being 5X cheaper), some insurance company telling me my install isn't acceptable yet some yard's install with less overall experience than me is OK. But then I didn't have anything other than liability because they won't insure single handers and also dictate where and when you can cruise.

The last Marina that burned in Seattle did over 9 million in damages to a number of boats and boat houses. It belongs to a friend of mine. Here's the the outcome.

One of his tenants was restoring a 1960 60 footer, had the boat on Port Risk Ccoverage. The Coast Guard investigation revealed that the boat being completed by professional installers. Was the cause of the fire.

The owner wanted the refrigeration located in the engine room, installer said no can't do it. Installer installed the compressor into a locker in the main cabin. After the Surveyor signed off and commissioned the yacht for sea, the owner then moved the refer compressor to the engine room. His first day on the water included fueling up his newly refitted yacht, upon return to the boat house he thought he smelled gas in the engine room. After an inspection no gas to be found, he locked up the boat house.

At 2:00am a fire was reported in his boat house and the boat fully engulfed.

The insurance carry of the boat denied liability, and now the marina owner, and the other boats lost, had to file claims with their own carriers. The cause boat owner is being sued by each and every other Insurance Company personally.

Lloyd

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

I spoke to a broker for Markel Ins, in re Yacht Policy and Li-Ion. He said a qualified yes for a factory install, expect the underwriters to have the surveyor report, but no to after market install.

Lloyd

A broker?? How about calling the actual insurance company and getting to the claims and underwriting departments as I did. My insurance company has no issues with the bank going on our boat. There answer was "There are no exclusions on your policy for that."

I do have some exclusions for such things as "named hurricanes", which change my deductible, but none for any sorts of systems installations..

They even told me that if the wiring and installation is expensive to get a valuation report/survey after the install and they can even adjust the agreed value, if it is affected. Installing this bank won't counteract a soft market....

[familycruisers]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

The last Marina that burned in Seattle did over 9 million in damages to a number of boats and boat houses. It belongs to a friend of mine. Here's the the outcome.

One of his tenants was restoring a 1960 60 footer, had the boat on Port Risk Ccoverage. The Coast Guard investigation revealed that the boat being completed by professional installers. Was the cause of the fire.

The owner wanted the refrigeration located in the engine room, installer said no can't do it. Installer installed the compressor into a locker in the main cabin. After the Surveyor signed off and commissioned the yacht for sea, the owner then moved the refer compressor to the engine room. His first day on the water included fueling up his newly refitted yacht, upon return to the boat house he thought he smelled gas in the engine room. After an inspection no gas to be found, he locked up the boat house.

At 2:00am a fire was reported in his boat house and the boat fully engulfed.

The insurance carry of the boat denied liability, and now the marina owner, and the other boats lost, had to file claims with their own carriers. The cause boat owner is being sued by each and every other Insurance Company personally.

Lloyd

More of an argument for moorings vs dock than battery bank tech.

[FlyingCloud1937]

Boat Owners Blamed In 2002 Marina Fire Three years after the fire, the U.S. government is going to court trying to get a half-million dollars from one of the victims.
On Wednesday, the Justice Department charged Asalee Beck, 54, and her son, Christopher Beck, with a series of civil infractions, alleging the pair caused the fire and resulting oil spill by failing to keep their vessel, the Nasty Boy, water-worthy.
The complaint, filed in U.S. District Court in Seattle, seeks reimbursement for the cost of the environmental response to the spill -- estimated to be at least $500,000.
Government Seeks Compensation For Lake Union Marina Fire | www.kirotv.com


Over the last 12 years we have had a number of fire in Marinas generating millions of dollars in losses. I was on the mayors committee for over a year developing new fire codes for covered Marinas in the City Of Seattle.


Just googly Seattle Marina Fires, for some very interesting reading.


No boggy man, just real issues.



Lloyd