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Old 20-01-2013, 15:12   #76
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
I'll bite.

Who makes a dedicated Marine Shore Charger for Li?
No one!

Who makes a dedicated Marine Alternator controller for Li?
I'll answer that one, Balmar...but how many have they sold? What have they done to test? I don't have that answer.

Who makes a Marine tested BMS.
I'll answer that...no one that I know.

Who makes a Marine tested Li bat?
I'll answer that, No one...some sell a Marine Li bat...but that is not the same.

How do I know this...bc it's still in DIY.

Lloyd
Vitron and presumably also Mastervolt who both make marine gear. They don't or have not sold their equiptment for marine use.

Are you saying these companies who make LiFeo4 batteries can't safely charge them. Presumably you don't recomend them for marine use. Please tell me why not.

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Old 20-01-2013, 15:13   #77
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Well said, we all watch with interest

We are doing similar to you in so much as item 2) and 6)

Our solar amounts to 760 watts 660 going to our planned Lithiums and the other charging the LA start batteries. For now we will only charge using the solar and battery charger. I still haven't found a 240v charger that i'm happy with.

We won't charge from the alternators preferring to keep systems separate for now, more so because i want to judge as i go, if the tiltable solar suffices then we shan't bother with linking the alternators at all.

Love your work Bob the attention to detail gives us all confidence. Cheers
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Old 20-01-2013, 15:18   #78
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Thanks. Before I went back to college to become a professional boat bum, I worked as a lab tech in R & D. I still enjoy that type of work even though the pay wasn't as good as container ships and drilling rigs.
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Old 20-01-2013, 15:23   #79
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Very true.
My controller, Midnite Solar Classic 150, can do any LiFe as well because every element of the charging cycle is controllable.
That very programmability is why we purchased one for our home's backup solar system. It charges up a 660 aH bank @ 24 V. at up to 92 amps.
Currently FLA's but with the success of our boat, when the home batts go, I'm switching to LiFePo4's in a heartbeat.
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Old 20-01-2013, 15:26   #80
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

My $140 Morningstar TriStar PWM solar charge controller appears to have enough configurability to work with LiFePO4. Use Morningstar's free MSView software, connect your laptop to the controller, run the TriStar wizard, and make the following settings:

1. Set charge voltage to 13.85V.
2. Set temperature compensation off (-0.000V per degree C).
3. Set float voltage to 13.1V.
4. Have it enter float if the duty cycle is less than 96% for 5 minutes.
5. Have it exit float if the duty cycle is 100% for 10 minutes.
6. Disable equalize.
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Old 20-01-2013, 15:50   #81
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Doug,

Can you educate me? Why did you pick 13.85 volts as the charge voltage? Wouldn't that start tapering the charge early? The LiFePO4 charger I bought is set at 14.8 volts. Advantage is fast charge, disadvantage is not much headroom if any cell isn't balanced like my pack #2 was, allowing the un-balanced cell to get above 4.0 volts while charger was still running at a 10 amp charge. When my cells are balanced like they are now, each cell goes to 3.7 volts and the charger turns off.
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Old 20-01-2013, 16:00   #82
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Bob, I wanted to stay away from the "knees" in order to maximize the lifespan of my batteries. Since I only typically use about 20% of my 260Ah on a daily basis, it is strategic to push and pull this charge from the upper---but still flat---region of the charging curve.

Your 14.8V is definitely inside the knee where a lot of drama can happen quickly, such as bloated cells. BUT, your application is a lot different than mine---you may need every Ah to get you and your kayak back home (with strong headwinds or currents, for example), so a full charge is wise in your case.
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Old 20-01-2013, 16:21   #83
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Bob, I wanted to stay away from the "knees" in order to maximize the lifespan of my batteries. Since I only typically use about 20% of my 260Ah on a daily basis, it is strategic to push and pull this charge from the upper---but still flat---region of the charging curve.

Your 14.8V is definitely inside the knee where a lot of drama can happen quickly, such as bloated cells. BUT, your application is a lot different than mine---you may need every Ah to get you and your kayak back home (with strong headwinds or currents, for example), so a full charge is wise in your case.
Thanks, that makes perfect sense to me when combined with what T1 Terry said here LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

This is a learning curve for all of us early adopters, and T1 Terry was one of the earliest adopters.

Also my need for a quick charge is why I'm happy with the 14.8 volt, 50 amp, 8 lb charger. I see myself on long kayak cruising trips, stopping for a marina meal and drinks and being able to charge a pack at the same time.
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Old 21-01-2013, 00:00   #84
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
I'll bite.

Who makes a dedicated Marine Shore Charger for Li?
No one!

Who makes a dedicated Marine Alternator controller for Li?
I'll answer that one, Balmar...but how many have they sold? What have they done to test? I don't have that answer.

Who makes a Marine tested BMS.
I'll answer that...no one that I know.

Who makes a Marine tested Li bat?
I'll answer that, No one...some sell a Marine Li bat...but that is not the same.

How do I know this...bc it's still in DIY.

Lloyd
No chargers. The Stirling Procharge Ultra range of Marine chargers is self programable but has a Lithium profile built in.

http://www.batterychargersdirect.com...spec_sheet.pdf

http://www.sterling-power-usa.com/li...iderations.pdf
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Old 21-01-2013, 02:23   #85
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Mastervolt make a Li marine battery. Their chargers support Li. There are solar MPPTs that. Support Li. There are alternator regulators that support Li.

I mean what more does one want. A sticker on the side of the battery that say " Marine Lesiure "! Because that's all you get with LA. just hold on, I can run some off of my printer.
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Old 21-01-2013, 02:41   #86
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Mastervolt make a Li marine battery. Their chargers support Li. There are solar MPPTs that. Support Li. There are alternator regulators that support Li.

I mean what more does one want. A sticker on the side of the battery that say " Marine Lesiure "! Because that's all you get with LA. just hold on, I can run some off of my printer.
Dave
Not really,

We just want a technology that the industry says we stand behind, so that the insurance companies say OK.

I know I've heard all the same arguments.


How much RV crap are you willing to take off shore?

Lloyd
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Old 21-01-2013, 03:03   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937
Not really,

We just want a technology that the industry says we stand behind, so that the insurance companies say OK.

I know I've heard all the same arguments.

How much RV crap are you willing to take off shore?

Lloyd
Sorry Lloyd , the mastervolt gear is probably one of the highest quality gear around. Easily the oyster yachts of electrical gear , its fully rated for Marine use. It's arguably better then the crap most people have today on there boats


I had a talk with my insurance guy yesterday, after my initial contact . He's a friend in a major boat insurer here. They have no issues with Li as they have no reason to have any issues. The installation must comply with any industry regulations or in their absence be to good industry practice. If they have any concerns with a DIY install they would seek a professional opinion.

They insure DIY mods to boats all the time. ( people changing masts , installing autopilots , changing engines etc)


The industry does stand behind it, but its still a small industry, will it be so in 5 years. I doubt it.

Dave
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Old 21-01-2013, 07:44   #88
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Lloyd, your posts seems to run quite contrary to your conclusions from them. You said:
" The Coast Guard investigation revealed that the boat being completed by professional installers. Was the cause of the fire."
Huh? Are you or aren't you saying that the USCG concluded that the professional installation was the cause of the fire? You appear to be saying that the USCG blames the fire on the professional installation. But then you go on to conclude:

"...Installer installed the compressor into a locker in the main cabin. After the Surveyor signed off and commissioned the yacht for sea, the owner then moved the refer compressor to the engine room."
How can the fire be blamed on the professional installation, which no longer existed?
And why would a fire be blamed on gas, whether that's supposed to mean gasoline or proane or what, when the topic at hand was moving a refrigeration system, which normally doesn't use any flammable fuels?
You're not making any sense here.

Similarly you complain that no vendor makes systems (charging systems, etc.) for LiFePo4 batteries in marine use. Well duh, maybe that's because there's just no MARKET for such products. No one is going to piss away their corporate profits by developing products (marine chargers, etc.) for a market that doesn't exist. And until various manufacturers get their story together and the public gets interested in buying their products, there's no market for accessories.

Right now every LiFePO4 battery maker swears their patented and exclusive variation is the best (or only) one that works, and each of them seems to want different charging and controls (BMS). There's simply no commercial market for accessories when each maker says the accessories have to be different to be compatible or approved. From a vendor's point of view? No one needs that trouble. The boating market is so damned small to begin with, that selling a dozen oddball chargers or BMSes just isn't going to be profitable. That's a comment on markets and marketing, not a reflection on how well the technology might work.
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Old 21-01-2013, 07:51   #89
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Similarly you complain that no vendor makes systems (charging systems, etc.) for LiFePo4 batteries in marine use. Well duh, maybe that's because there's just no MARKET for such products.
Thats simply not a factually correct statement, There are several that do ( Sterling , Victron , Mastervolt, Balmar, Bluesky, to name a few).
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Old 21-01-2013, 12:41   #90
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Lloyd,

are you saving Vitron does not make marine chargers and their gear should only be used on RV,s and that they cannot be programmed for Li.

Cheers
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