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Old 19-01-2013, 21:46   #61
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Originally Posted by ebaugh View Post
if you push the high cell too much it all translates to heat since there are no more electrons to move.....
Ah yes. A good reason to spend a hundred bucks for a BMS.
My MiniBMS has been working nicely since day one.
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Old 20-01-2013, 01:02   #62
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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I spoke to a broker for Markel Ins, in re Yacht Policy and Li-Ion. He said a qualified yes for a factory install, expect the underwriters to have the surveyor report, but no to after market install.

Lloyd
Yes. I expect you ask a leading question one can always get a lead reply.

Lloyd, i can understand your caution at present as you have to stand by your work but there seems to be an accelerating positive body of evidence accumulating.

We have had a couple of marina fires in Australia and Lithium batteries were certainly not involved.

I agree your electrical system is one of the key vessel systems and must be done well without shortcuts. As a non electrician I have not yet seen any evidence that done properly LIFeO4 is inherently more dangerous than LA batteries. There are advantages. But I am open to any real evidence against.

Cheers
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Old 20-01-2013, 02:35   #63
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Yes. I expect you ask a leading question one can always get a lead reply.

Lloyd, i can understand your caution at present as you have to stand by your work but there seems to be an accelerating positive body of evidence accumulating.

We have had a couple of marina fires in Australia and Lithium batteries were certainly not involved.

I agree your electrical system is one of the key vessel systems and must be done well without shortcuts. As a non electrician I have not yet seen any evidence that done properly LIFeO4 is inherently more dangerous than LA batteries. There are advantages. But I am open to any real evidence against.

Cheers
A boat is a huge responsibility.... to the owner... to the insurance company...to the technicians that work on them, and to the environment.

We all make risk based decisions to play a part in the Marine Business. So when I caution about insurance issues it's wise to make sure you are covered...bc it's not just the loss of your own boat that you are at risk for.

I am all for new technology. Right now Li-Ion is experimental on land. It's experimental in the air, as well as on the water. Boeing was shut down bc...ya just can't park the plane while in air...and evacuate...neither can you do that with a boat that is off-shore, or even for that matter when near shore in some cases.

The risk with LFP to me currently, is it's only about 2-3 years old aboard a yacht. It has been implemented by various of DIY'rs that all start from different starting points. With different results and recommendations.

The weak points ala the risk points I see are Charging Regulation as we have not had anytime for the industry to mature to a real marine solution.

Also I have a risk aversion to the current state of battery design that uses dissimilar metals in the internal and external post construction. This is the potential fire hazard that I see. As the resistance builds that heat potential increases the risk of fire.

I have not seen one system that I would leave my family aboard sleeping while the battery bank is connected.

Sure the auto market has implemented this technology, and there is a growing community of DIY'ers with success stories. but

It wasn't long ago the the Marine/Yacht industry adopted the auto technology. With many early failures. You just can't take auto engines and install em to a boat without marinization.

So it's going to take manufactures in the marine industry to start adopting, and building well thought out and tested systems for this to become mainstream. It's going to cost more, but then the risk we all assume will be less.

Then we will be able to put family and friends aboard with some assurance to their safety...As captain of the ship you are responcible to every sole on-board, to your neighbors in the marina. Even to the environment.

Lloyd
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Old 20-01-2013, 03:48   #64
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Consider it a flock of birds.

The lead bird looks back and sees nothing but heads following, so assumes it must be doing the right thing.

Doesn't stop to consider the tails that are actually controlling the flight.

I am a tail right now.

Destiny has it's path.

Lloyd
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Old 20-01-2013, 03:50   #65
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

dooh...

didn't see that jet engine in my flight path, says the head.
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Old 20-01-2013, 03:52   #66
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Consider it a flock of birds.

The lead bird looks back and sees nothing but heads following, so assumes it must be doing the right thing.

Doesn't stop to consider the tails that are actually controlling the flight.

I am a tail right now.

Destiny has it's path.

Lloyd
And your view won't ever change no matter how hard you flap ...
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Old 20-01-2013, 03:56   #67
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Ah yes. A good reason to spend a hundred bucks for a BMS.
My MiniBMS has been working nicely since day one.
Exactly
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Old 20-01-2013, 03:58   #68
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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And your view won't ever change no matter how hard you flap ...
Lagoon

Did you ever stop to consider that all the birds behind only see the tails?

As I said destiny has it's path.

just watch out for jet engines.

lloyd
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Old 20-01-2013, 04:27   #69
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

It's surprising how many people think LIFe PO4 batteries are dangerous, but will carry a mobile phone, with much more dangerous Li ion, or even the most dangerous Li Po batteries. They will put the phone in their pocket very close to important bits of anatomy

I think all the evidence is that LIFe PO4 is at least as safe as LA.
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Old 20-01-2013, 04:42   #70
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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It's surprising how many people think LIFe PO4 batteries are dangerous, but will carry a mobile phone, with much more dangerous Li ion, or even the most dangerous Li Po batteries. They will put the phone in their pocket very close to important bits of anatomy

I think all the evidence is that LIFe PO4 is at least as safe as LA.
I'll bite.

Who makes a dedicated Marine Shore Charger for Li?
No one!

Who makes a dedicated Marine Alternator controller for Li?
I'll answer that one, Balmar...but how many have they sold? What have they done to test? I don't have that answer.

Who makes a Marine tested BMS.
I'll answer that...no one that I know.

Who makes a Marine tested Li bat?
I'll answer that, No one...some sell a Marine Li bat...but that is not the same.

How do I know this...bc it's still in DIY.

Lloyd
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Old 20-01-2013, 05:15   #71
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
It's surprising how many people think LIFe PO4 batteries are dangerous, but will carry a mobile phone, with much more dangerous Li ion, or even the most dangerous Li Po batteries. They will put the phone in their pocket very close to important bits of anatomy

I think all the evidence is that LIFe PO4 is at least as safe as LA.
Not to mention my wife's friend who was paralyzed in a skiing accident in high school. Her chair has been LiFePO4 for about three years.... OMG the sky is falling....
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Old 20-01-2013, 10:51   #72
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Lithium iron is safe as any energy storage device can be, and alot safer than most. Just because the research hasn't been done in the marine market doesn't mean a thing. The charge technology is here. Ive been using it to charge my rc helicopters for years now.
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Old 20-01-2013, 14:18   #73
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

http://www.gsl.com.au/tl_files/pdf-s.../MPPT60-2L.pdf

Take the time and look at the above link, here in Australia we have manufacturers that ACTUALLY build a MPPT controller to suit LiFePO4 installations, imagine that?

'Tis sad these threads get hijacked by naysayers so often that the threads intent is lost.
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Old 20-01-2013, 14:29   #74
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
http://www.gsl.com.au/tl_files/pdf-s.../MPPT60-2L.pdf

Take the time and look at the above link, here in Australia we have manufacturers that ACTUALLY build a MPPT controller to suit LiFePO4 installations, imagine that?

'Tis sad these threads get hijacked by naysayers so often that the threads intent is lost.
Very true.
My controller, Midnite Solar Classic 150, can do any LiFe as well because every element of the charging cycle is controllable.
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Old 20-01-2013, 14:55   #75
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

I am so accustomed to naysayers on the automotive forums that I belong to, I just consider it as my own cheering section, pushing me to prove my point. LAs aren't as safe as LiFePO4 period. No battery that I have ever used can hold a candle to the performance of LiFePO4 period.

On the automotive forums I documented my build of what I now call my "Swiss Army Knife" of hot rods. What I wanted, and what many said couldn't be done, is a roadster that had impeccable street manners with a tame idle, that could corner better than a Corvette, run a mid 9 second 1/4 mile, and return better than 25 mpg while highway cruising. It does all that, been in Street Rodder magazine, and is a real hoot to drive.

I've stated on other threads what my ideal boat will have as to systems. LiFePO4 is the heart of these systems and the experience I am gaining with the smaller LiFePO4 cells will make scaling them up an easy task. Here is what I want;

1) 50 nm range on electric propulsion
2) Fully electric galley and rail mounted electric BBQ
3) Electric dinghy
4) Electric kayak for longer ranges
5) Electric scooter transportable by dinghy.
6) No propane or gasoline on board.

I've done 4 & 5

My next boat I'll outfit with enough solar to exceed daily needs by 25%. The extra will be stored in a 48 volt propulsion/inverter bank of LiFePO4 size dependent on boat size, but somewhere between 21 KW-hr and 52 KW-hr. My typical cruising has me on the hook for long periods, so extra panels and large LiFePO4 storage works fine for me.
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