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Old 18-01-2013, 16:43   #16
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

I would have thought considering Lead Acid's ability to gas another alternative would and should be well received.

Look at this link towards the end there's lot's of very interesting stuff.


lithium & solar power LiFePO4, Search results for: BMS123

Cheers we are doing same as you.
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Old 18-01-2013, 16:48   #17
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

No one is building the actual components all is available commercially from hundreds of sources worldwide. I don't view LA's to be safe this technology for Lithium is hardly new what is new is the use in RV's and boats.
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Old 18-01-2013, 18:25   #18
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Think of it this way, if your boat's insurance survey indicated you had a kerosene stove and afterwards you changed it to propane and blew up the boat, do you think your insurance company would say "no problem!"
If installed according to normal safe practices...absolutely. The insurance companies don't dictate how you outfit your boat. And the odds are very small that a properly installed propane system would cause the demise of your boat if properly installed. The myriad of other reasons are far more likely. Not unlike the guy who sailed into our anchorage tonight surrounded by reefs at dark...talented skipper...he got away with it this time in fine form. But he was one problem away from disaster.

Im surprised Boeing is having these problems on one hand because of the obvious reasons. And because the initial adoption of NiCAD in airplanes had some similar issues. They should have known better. But on the other hand, it's very hard to change a design once it's in place for an aircraft because of the regulatory reviews. So it ends up waiting for problems to occur that force the rethinking. We say in the business, changes are a result of blood.... And like someone else mentioned, much of this was originally engineered years ago. I can't believe today they would not use LiFePO4, based on the stability, cycle life and shelf life. But I don't think commercially available LiFePO4 prismatic cells were available during the design timeframe. If they were, it would be from Chinese manufacturers, small in size and probably without the ability to produce, or certify satisfactorily the needed documentation for an aircraft design. Or the business size to convince Boeing they would be around forever in the supply chain.

Genasun has sold LiFePO4 for several years now. Mastervolt has recently joined in. Others will follow. No boats have burned in the existing installs. One will eventually, but so have many using mature batteries. If you are not interested, or don't see the benefits, don't install them. But don't rain on the parade without more concrete evidence there are significant unaddressed issues. if you see them, point them out. But Boeings failure is not universal.
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Old 18-01-2013, 18:43   #19
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Either propane or kerosene is perfectly safe if used properly, but my point is that your insurance company wants to know what is on your boat and that it is installed properly, and they will charge you according to the perceived risk. Frankly, I have no idea if they would change anything if your insurance survey indicated lithium batteries, but I am nearly 100% certain they would want to know and would expect an insurance survey to reveal that fact. At the very least they are more expensive and are changing the value of the boat they are insuring. Why do you think they ask for a new valuation survey every few years?--they want to know what the value and risk is of what they are insuring. Makes sense to me. Why not ask them?
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Old 18-01-2013, 18:48   #20
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Either propane or kerosene is perfectly safe if used properly, but my point is that your insurance company wants to know what is on your boat and that it is installed properly, and they will charge you according to the perceived risk. Frankly, I have no idea if they would change anything if your insurance survey indicated lithium batteries, but I am nearly 100% certain they would want to know and would expect an insurance survey to reveal that fact. Why not ask them?
Don't ask. Just tell them listed in your survey. Most of the top line race boats have been using Lifeo4 batteries for some time now.
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Old 18-01-2013, 18:58   #21
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Hint: if there is something you are reluctant to tell your insurance company it is bound to come up if you ever have a claim.
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Old 18-01-2013, 19:18   #22
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Hint: if there is something you are reluctant to tell your insurance company it is bound to come up if you ever have a claim.
I think you are a bit too hung up on insurance...but my boat is not a high dollar one...less than 200K and far from new. The more significant risk and likelihood of a claim is not my lithium bank. We are cruising the Eastern and Western Caribbean. It's more likely a claim will be a result of a hurricane, or my anchor drags and we end up on a reef or bad passage weather etc...... Many other reasons more likely than the lithium bank could result in a loss. I've owned boats for over 30 years now, insured them all and never had a claim and intend to keep it that way. But if I had one, I may be naive, but I think they would pay. Or maybe not, but if not, the reason for the loss would be immaterial.
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Old 18-01-2013, 19:22   #23
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

Has nothing to do with this thread in anyway?
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Old 18-01-2013, 22:10   #24
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

ebaugh, have you had bad/good/great experience with your LifePO4 bank?

Do you use a BMS system? What charger do you use?
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Old 18-01-2013, 22:40   #25
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I have been using lifepo4 batteries for over 2 years on my sailing cat and am very happy. All of my research prior to committing showed them to be stable and safe, unlike the li cobalt technology. To my mind the biggest risk is their ability to deliver large currents. Ie: the consequences if a normal electrical fault (short) are potentially larger.

Well set up fuses and breakers should be normal good practice regardless if the battery technology.

The biggest difficulty was finding solar charger with enough flexibility to configure a charging profile.

I have engine, solar and wind linked in. And shore of course.
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Old 18-01-2013, 22:58   #26
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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I have been using lifepo4 batteries for over 2 years on my sailing cat and am very happy. All of my research prior to committing showed them to be stable and safe, unlike the li cobalt technology. To my mind the biggest risk is their ability to deliver large currents. Ie: the consequences if a normal electrical fault (short) are potentially larger.

Well set up fuses and breakers should be normal good practice regardless if the battery technology.

The biggest difficulty was finding solar charger with enough flexibility to configure a charging profile.

I have engine, solar and wind linked in. And shore of course.
What charger did you settle for and how many amps is your pack? Cheers
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Old 18-01-2013, 23:03   #27
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Question- is a Toyota Prius battery a lifep04
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Old 18-01-2013, 23:10   #28
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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What charger did you settle for and how many amps is your pack? Cheers
Frank, some info in this thread Batteries And 12vdc Systems
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Old 18-01-2013, 23:11   #29
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

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Question- is a Toyota Prius battery a lifep04
The traction battery is a sealed 38-module nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack providing 273.6 volts, 6.5 AĚh capacity and weighing 53.3 kg

You have to remember that Chevron Oil purchased the patent to NiMH cells rated over 10 a-hr.
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Old 18-01-2013, 23:30   #30
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Re: Basic Designs for LiFePO4 Battery Systems

My (house) battery is 180Ah which replaced a a 3x 105Ah LA bank. The usable capacity is roughly the same and the charging characteristics are much, much better. Other benefits are the ability to drive big current draws without running the engines. Winch and Microwave via an inverter for example.

The solar regulator is a 20A device from Australian company Plasmatronics called a Dingo. They also have an earlier generation called the 20/20 which is very similar. So far it has worked very well and been totally reliable. I could not find another that allowed the flexibility to get a 100% correct charge profile. Gut feel says the marine environment may get to it eventually but so far so good. My boat is dry and has a pretty good environment. Most seem to be made for RVs nowadays.

The wind gen is not as precise in managing max voltage so I set it a bit lower to be sure to, be sure!
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