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Old 14-05-2019, 13:15   #346
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
You first have to understand the capacity of the bank before the percentage of charge means anything much in absolute terms. I did a draw down on a 600 hour bank of around 580 amps without getting to 24 vdc, so the 600 amp nominal capacity is what I use. I totalize the Ah consumed via a Link20, so if I take out 300 Ah and the SG200 reads 50%, I can assume it is accurate. Mine is still learning, as I have only done relatively shallow discharges, then partial recharges since I brain wiped it. I expect by next week I'll have enough cycles on a >50% discharge and 100% charge cycles to measure accuracy.
My factory capacity was 464Ahrs.
The SG200 sayes 90% SOH.
So I have lost approx 2.5% capacity per year as they are 4yr's old.
I have PSOC'd for the last 4yrs with a sprinkle of equalisations. (1/yr)
I think I've done well!

I am too lazy to do a draw down test. I bought the SG200 for that.
BUT, I had to question the taper current recommended by Balmar because
Rod (& others) have stated different in unrelated tests.
That they (Balmar) have set their SW for the 2-4% taper current is feasible.
To get the charge termination "+" right.
3.4% is way off 100% soc , for my setup. IMHO as stated earlier.
(That imaginary number, 100%).

If Rod sayes its accurate, that good enough for me. Little point in my half-ass testing. I suppose bank specific testing has merit for calibration.
I would be curious to know if he altered the "advanced " settings ie taper current, Perkuerts etc in his tests.
Can't see him letting that past the radar without comment.
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Old 14-05-2019, 13:46   #347
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Note that a "lower" endAmps definition of 100% leads to a **higher** SoC, closer to the battery maker specification of Full.

As the bank ages, it takes longer to actually get there, or with a "too high" defintion (lower endAmps spec) can become downright impossible.

But, as discussed above my understanding was that the SG200 with its automatic adjustment of SoH capacity, measures "from the bottom", so that the owner is expected to just get used to seeing 94%, then 87% etc as the "Full SoC" point, as SoH capacity gets reduced by the bank's wear and aging?

Or am I mistaken about that, and the adjustment being discussed now is a workaround, allowing SoC measurement "from the too", so like all other meters, display of SoC 100% can mean "as high as I want the bank to get" and be adjusted as SoH declines?
I think the last paragraph is accurate. You decide what 100% soc is and charge termination "+" point.
That charge termination is confusing as it has no control of the charger.
If you charge to inputted taper current, gauge will always show 100%.
Even if it isn't technically 100%.
SOH will continue downward of course.
How I understand it. At this pt.
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Old 14-05-2019, 13:54   #348
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

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My factory capacity was 464Ahrs.
Each vendor of quality deep cycling batts should have their endAmps spec available in the manual or data sheet.

If not, then the standard for lead is .005C, but that is very high SoC, in your case 2.3A, and as they wear, 0.01C or say 5A is more realistic.

Your SG200 is not actually **controlling** the charge process right?

Just monitoring, so if **the charger** is successfully getting to that 5A point in a reasonable time, you might want to set the SG200 to display 100% when the current tapers to say .02C, call it 9A.


> the taper current recommended by Balmar

I believe that's just a default, not a reco.

Accuracy requires changing settings from the default. More so the more sophisticated the gear


You could of course choose to set it to the exact same endAmps as you want your charger to achieve, but unless that is tied into your BM, it will use AHT, so sometimes be higher, sometimes be lower depending on conditions, active loads etc.

Which is fine, as long as you get "pretty close" at least a few times a week. If possible, for good longevity.
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Old 14-05-2019, 14:06   #349
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

"Your SG200 is not actually **controlling** the charge process right?"

Right.

Balmar default for my setup was 9.5A.
Perkeurts= 1.3

They recommend to incrementally increasing TC until achieving charge termination "+"
as suits your mode of use.
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Old 15-05-2019, 06:16   #350
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

I have some questions.
I noticed when the power is cut/ battery turned off and back on later on that the saved pwr save settings are not remembered. Its always back on default.
Will this be fixed and savable with a bluetooth update?

If the AGM is not a true deep cycle but a hybrid.
What should be choosen, AGM or dual purpose lead acid?


The LV fault for LFP is 13V. Isnt this way to high? Li can go down to 12V under load or even lower right?


Say after 3 or 6 or even 12months of battery inactivity in storage, is a few cycles all thats needed for accuracy again? Or should a factory reset be performed?

Finally i dont understand when charge voltage setting would have to be manually changed? Is it required when charger goes into float to early or holds absorption V too long?
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Old 15-05-2019, 07:47   #351
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by lateral View Post
I think the last paragraph is accurate. You decide what 100% soc is and charge termination "+" point.
That charge termination is confusing as it has no control of the charger.
If you charge to inputted taper current, gauge will always show 100%.
Even if it isn't technically 100%.
SOH will continue downward of course.
How I understand it. At this pt.
The SoC reflects the percentage of the current capacity of the battery that is available. If a 100 Ah battery now has 80 Ah capacity, when "Charge V" < the voltage measured during charging, and "Taper Curr" > charge acceptance during charging, then the battery is at 100% SoC, even though it's actual capacity is now 80 Ah. However, SoH would measure 80% in this example. The two measures together give a fuller picture of the battery.
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Old 15-05-2019, 07:59   #352
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

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Originally Posted by JmanC View Post
I have some questions.
I noticed when the power is cut/ battery turned off and back on later on that the saved pwr save settings are not remembered. Its always back on default.
Will this be fixed and savable with a bluetooth update?
It would appear you have the device wired incorrectly. I believe it should always have a + voltage source, which is why they supplied a fused line for that. My assumption is that the settings are stored in volatile memory, which is why constant power is required, but Balmar can confirm this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanC View Post
If the AGM is not a true deep cycle but a hybrid.
What should be choosen, AGM or dual purpose lead acid?
Beats me. Sounds like a good question for Balmar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanC View Post
The LV fault for LFP is 13V. Isnt this way to high? Li can go down to 12V under load or even lower right?
I think that some of the defaults may not be optimal, but they can be changed. And yes, 13 v is too high for the LV alert. The adjustment to Charge V and Taper Curr may be needed to trigger a 100% SoC, as described above.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanC View Post
Say after 3 or 6 or even 12months of battery inactivity in storage, is a few cycles all thats needed for accuracy again? Or should a factory reset be performed?
I'll defer to Balmar, but my understanding is that the answer is no, the "learning" the device attains doesn't go away, as long as power is supplied to the device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanC View Post
Finally i dont understand when charge voltage setting would have to be manually changed? Is it required when charger goes into float to early or holds absorption V too long?
You would change it if you never reached 100% SoC. For example, if Charge V was set at 18 volts, and you never reached 18 volts (hope you don't), then you would never get to 100% SoC.


Happy to have any misconceptions of my own corrected....
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Old 15-05-2019, 12:48   #353
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
The SoC reflects the percentage of the current capacity of the battery that is available. If a 100 Ah battery now has 80 Ah capacity, when "Charge V" < the voltage measured during charging, and "Taper Curr" > charge acceptance during charging, then the battery is at 100% SoC, even though it's actual capacity is now 80 Ah. However, SoH would measure 80% in this example. The two measures together give a fuller picture of the battery.
Agreed, except your "100%" is not realising it's full potential because of your user defined high taper current. Why I said it's user defined with the top limit being when the battery won't accept anymore the gauge not seeing 100% because taper current set too low etc. Semantics, I guess.
Gauge capacity versus potential battery capacity, which can be increased by various means, maintenance being one.
Happy to be corrected too. I didn't read the manual until late in the piece.
So far great piece of kit for the not-so-lucid like me.
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Old 15-05-2019, 15:13   #354
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

1. Setting are stored in persistent memory, but it is not saved there instantaneously, only every so many minutes. You should have the SG200 powered up at all times, except when the boat is put into storage.
2. Learning stays (See #1 above, same thing), and if the battery condition is the same as when disconnected, but discharged somewhat, the SoC will adjust accordingly. You need to make sure there are not loads on the batteries while the SG200 is powered up and perhaps the 1st minute or so.
3. We will be making some changes to the faults values (not user editable) for some of the chemistries in a later release. You can always change the alerts (User editable) values to whatever you need.

Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
It would appear you have the device wired incorrectly. I believe it should always have a + voltage source, which is why they supplied a fused line for that. My assumption is that the settings are stored in volatile memory, which is why constant power is required, but Balmar can confirm this.

Beats me. Sounds like a good question for Balmar.


I think that some of the defaults may not be optimal, but they can be changed. And yes, 13 v is too high for the LV alert. The adjustment to Charge V and Taper Curr may be needed to trigger a 100% SoC, as described above.



I'll defer to Balmar, but my understanding is that the answer is no, the "learning" the device attains doesn't go away, as long as power is supplied to the device.

You would change it if you never reached 100% SoC. For example, if Charge V was set at 18 volts, and you never reached 18 volts (hope you don't), then you would never get to 100% SoC.


Happy to have any misconceptions of my own corrected....
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Old 15-05-2019, 17:22   #355
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by witzgall View Post
1. Setting are stored in persistent memory, but it is not saved there instantaneously, only every so many minutes. You should have the SG200 powered up at all times, except when the boat is put into storage.
2. Learning stays (See #1 above, same thing), and if the battery condition is the same as when disconnected, but discharged somewhat, the SoC will adjust accordingly. You need to make sure there are not loads on the batteries while the SG200 is powered up and perhaps the 1st minute or so.
3. We will be making some changes to the faults values (not user editable) for some of the chemistries in a later release. You can always change the alerts (User editable) values to whatever you need.

Chris
Thanks Chris.
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Old 17-05-2019, 04:49   #356
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
I think that some of the defaults may not be optimal, but they can be changed. And yes, 13 v is too high for the LV alert. The adjustment to Charge V and Taper Curr may be needed to trigger a 100% SoC, as described
Thanks Delfin,
There is no way i can see how to change faults, what happens when a fault is triggered? An annoying pop up message? My faults are not showing up, eg. HV of 15V does not trigger anything.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
You would change it if you never reached 100% SoC. For example, if Charge V was set at 18 volts, and you never reached 18 volts (hope you don't), then you would never get to 100% SoC.
What if my sterling charger goes into float at only 95%soc?
After that it reads 3.5hours left. What should i do? Still confused to be honest.
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Old 17-05-2019, 05:05   #357
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by witzgall View Post
1. Setting are stored in persistent memory, but it is not saved there instantaneously, only every so many minutes. You should have the SG200 powered up at all times, except when the boat is put into storage.
2. Learning stays (See #1 above, same thing), and if the battery condition is the same as when disconnected, but discharged somewhat, the SoC will adjust accordingly. You need to make sure there are not loads on the batteries while the SG200 is powered up and perhaps the 1st minute or so.
3. We will be making some changes to the faults values (not user editable) for some of the chemistries in a later release. You can always change the alerts (User editable) values to whatever you need.

Chris
Thanks
I have an issue not getting a SOH calcuation to show after 3cycles. The very 1st use after 2 cycles it read 100% which sounds to high as my AGM is a few years old.
But after a factory reset and re set battery type and capacity its been 3 deep cycles and its not showing any soh.
I started out fully charged, connected the sg200, waited a minute or so then ran a C/20 load until around 55% soc. Charged back up at 0.2C and kept on float for a few hours, as the battery charger goes into float around mid 90s% soc. The next 2 cycles i repeated but discharged at C/8 to speed things up. But still no soh.
I do see the + sign on my 100% soc, for example on second cycle when batt charger went to float early at mid 90%, I kept on float for an hour or two and came back and the gauge showe 100% soc with + sign.

Is there anything i could try or anything obvious as to why no soh?

Thanks
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Old 17-05-2019, 05:43   #358
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

I found the Balmar tech phone people very helpful
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Old 17-05-2019, 06:17   #359
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

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I found the Balmar tech phone people very helpful
Second that ^^^^^. If the initial contact can't answer your question or solve your problem they have great follow up with the engineering staff.

No matter what, you are far, far more likely to get a useful answer from Balmar than from here since NOBODY here knows exactly how these things work (no matter what they think!)
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Old 17-05-2019, 09:49   #360
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Re: Balmar SG-200 Battery Monitor

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What if my sterling charger goes into float at only 95%soc?
Reboot it and it will give another cycle of minimum Absorb Hold time.

Going past endAmps for a while won't hurt anything.

Not nearly as much as always falling short does anyway.
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