Balmar 100 amp alternators

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

A field cutout switch at the helm requires a switch and large cables capable of handling a high current. A much cheaper and simpler option is to cut the power feed to the regulator.

I just meant the functionality, not how implemented, depends on the alt too.

Ideal would be the ability to dial alt current output up and down as desired, but that's so far only possible with the SAR and maybe Triskel projects

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by rgleason

it no longer performs well at low rpm, but at higher rpm (say 1800) it puts out 40+ amps to 225ah FLA.

Tweaking pulley ratio can make a big difference, but that's not necessarily cheaper than replacing the alt, unless you have a machinist friend.

[rgleason]

Dashew used these Electrodyne

"Not only are brushless alternators resistant to dirt, dust, smoke and water but they also naturally produce higher currents with less input energy"

Likely too big for 3YM30 and probably beyond my budget. I was wondering about the advantages of brushless. --Why higher currents with less input energy?

The GE-160 only needs 4.5 field coil amps.


Also Zena
Marine Alts


Hot output curve of Zena 150

Very useful bracketing Components!

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Greg,

If you don't mind...on your 614 dislay while charging at full load.
Bulk charging voltage? (bV value)
What ah does it produce continuously?

If it is in bV it is not in bulk it is at constant voltage and current is declining.....

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

A field cutout switch at the helm requires a switch and large cables capable of handling a high current.

The field circuit is not very high current.... A simple toggle switch capable of 15A would be fine. Balmar however does not want the field wire interrupted as a means to shut down the regulator, they want either the brown ignition feed or the red power wire cut. For a LiFePO4 BMS cutting the red wire is instantaneous and preferred. For a more power to the prop shut down the brown ignition feed wire is fine.

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

A much cheaper and simpler option is to cut the power feed to the regulator.

On an external regulator, such as a Balmar, this is a better solution than cutting the field.

Originally Posted by sailinglegend

On most Diesel engines temporarily turning off the ignition may do the same job, but also lose the power to the instruments like oil pressure and tacho.

Cutting an exciter feed to many internally regulated alternators may not shut them down when already up and running. For a positive shut down you'd ideally need to tap into the regulators power feed circuit. Cutting ignition would also stop an electronic fuel pump...

[NYSail]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Greg,

If you don't mind...on your 614 dislay while charging at full load.
Bulk charging voltage? (bV value)
What ah does it produce continuously?
What does your 614 show for Alt temp? (Al1 value)
What does your 614 show for Batt temp? (b1l value)
What batteries?

Thanks!

I have these at the boat........ I got the specs from Lifeline for my 4D agm's. Also confirmed with MainsSail (Rod) from Compass Marine. The Balmar mc 614 regulator had factory time set of 19 minutes on bulk, 19 minutes on absorption then would flip to float. I set volts and time to charge in bulk and absorb. Rod knows his stuff and is worth consulting with... its where I buy all my electrical stuff so I have access to his knowledge.
If I do remember my alt would get to about 80C with batteries typically around 35C (house bank is unfortunately in engine compartment). And this is typically when I bring the house down 50%. Also I have very good ventilation in my engine compartment with 2 passive fresh air intake and 1 motor ventilator (in line blower). When I am charging the bank I see 80 / 90 amps, (I stepped down 3 places) however I typically run at 2250 rpm's for long runs which brings my hull speed above 7 knots in favorable seas. When I bring rpm's higher I do see greater amps.


Greg

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Bulk charging voltage? (bV value)

Vendor settings terminology can be inconsistent.

Bulk as used here is CC stage, so voltage will vary.

If there is more than one voltage setpoint before Float, maybe best to here call them Absorb #1 #2, or Early Absorb / Late Absorb, or Absorb vs Finishing voltage?

and then put the "wrong" at least confusing vendor-specific setting term in brackets.

[bcboomer]

[QUOTE=rgleason;2797485]Dashew used these Electrodyne

"Not only are brushless alternators resistant to dirt, dust, smoke and water but they also naturally produce higher currents with less input energy"

Likely too big for 3YM30 and probably beyond my budget. I was wondering about the advantages of brushless. --Why higher currents with less input energy?

All-Tek Industrial have a small frame 200 amp brushless at a VERY reasonable price.
I'm just sorting out the details to order one so I'll post the results later.

[Curtwpk]

I am considering the Balmar AT (either 170a or 200a) on one of my two engines. Catamaran with new Yanmar 2my-15. These are "15hp" engines.

Goal is to run 10k btu air conditioner using a smart start box.
Continuous load is about 7A(800watts) . So thats about 67amps at 12v.
Figuring 15% loss that seems to be about 85A needed at 12v. Naturally I will have to match the batteries and Inverter to the task.

Specs say this will use up more than half the horsepower on the Yanmar. That's ok since this would be used whilst on the hook.

This engine is only a little larger than a suitable genset. I don't have nor want a seperate genset to run the AC.

Will continuous operation of the engine, inverter, and A/C be OK?

Will the Balmar plus battery plus soft start handle start loads for the A/C?

I like the idea of using one of the Diesels as my "genset" when its not needed for propulsion.

[a64pilot]

The batteries can handle it no problem, the inverter if the right size can do it forever.
However it’s very likely that the engine cannot.
Everyone it seems likes the idea of using their main engine as a generator for some reason.
What the problem may be is what is allowable for you to pull power wise from your engine.
In the case of my 44 HP 4JHE and a 100 HP turbo Yanmar motor I’ve heard about, it’s 4 HP at 1800 RPM and 8 HP at redline RPM. As Balmar and other sources quote 25 amps per HP, that means that for my 44 HP motor and the 100 HP turbo that I know about, we can pull 100 amps max if we are willing to run our our engines at half redline speed at anchor, which is 1800 RPM or the same as a 60 Hz generator.
When you run your numbers, don’t forget your house load and if there is any battery charging going on at all. My house load is typical I think and it’s 10 amps.

In short before you go down this road you need to find the installation manual for YOUR motor and find out how much power is allowed to be taken from the crankshaft.
My engine is meant to be an example only, but I’d be surprised if a much smaller motor is allowed to have more power extracted than a larger one.
Then realize this power is RPM dependent, as I said to ne allowed to pull 4 HP or 100 amps, my motor has to be running at 1800 RPM, any lower and it’s overloaded.

Now Yanmar doesn’t specify the cause of the limit, but some of us gear heads feel certain it’s the front crankshaft bearing and how much torque it can accept without excessive wear.

[a64pilot]

However a little Honda for $1,000 can run a 16K Btu AC with a soft start until it runs out of gas, so it certainly can run your 10K, it may in fact not even need a soft start, but a big inverter wouldn’t either for that matter

[Curtwpk]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The batteries can handle it no problem, the inverter if the right size can do it forever.
However it’s very likely that the engine cannot.............

Thanks for a great response.

I had not thought of a limitation on the engine. I kinda assumed the only limit was the power of the engine and type of belt.

Where could I find a Yanmar spec on what kind of alternator horsepower load would be acceptable without endangering the warranty ? I have no idea where to look. It is certainly not in the operating manual.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by Curtwpk

I am considering the Balmar AT (either 170a or 200a) on one of my two engines. Catamaran with new Yanmar 2my-15. These are "15hp" engines.

Goal is to run 10k btu air conditioner using a smart start box.
Continuous load is about 7A(800watts) . So thats about 67amps at 12v.
Figuring 15% loss that seems to be about 85A needed at 12v. Naturally I will have to match the batteries and Inverter to the task.

Specs say this will use up more than half the horsepower on the Yanmar. That's ok since this would be used whilst on the hook.

This engine is only a little larger than a suitable genset. I don.t have nor want a genset to run the AC.

Will continuous operation of the engine, inverter, and A/C be OK?

Will the Balmar plus battery plus soft start handle start loads for the A/C?

I like the idea of using one of the Diesels as my "genset" when its not needed for propulsion.

I have a 110A Balmar alternator and upgraded to a serpentine belt a couple of years ago because of too much belt wear...I strongly suspect that you will also with the alternators you would like to use and serpentine is better than dual belts. Secondly, as I recall the rule of thumb is that alternator use takes away about one HP for every 25amps from the engine which doesn't leave you much.

I don't know what a "smart start box" is.

I suggest you call a Balmar tech rep and ask him what he recommends. I have found them very helpful on all of the numerous times I have called them.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Curtwpk

Thanks for a great response.

I had not thought of a limitation on the engine. I kinda assumed the only limit was the power of the engine and type of belt.

Where could I find a Yanmar spec on what kind of alternator horsepower load would be acceptable without endangering the warranty ? I have no idea where to look. It is certainly not in the operating manual.

None of us thought about it, but lately it was pointed out to us by a member, he posted pages out of the Yanmar installation manual, that was very specific and laid it all out.
That is the manual you need to find or get a copy of for your motor, the installation manual.

See the battery bank is normally just a pass thru, meaning if you use 85 amps and are making 85 amps, the batteries just sit there, doing nothing. Now for start up loads and or any short term load, batteries can easily supply enormous amounts of power, just one can start a Big block Chevy for example, so a bunch of them can easily start an AC. Which takes us to an inverter. My 2800W inverter can supply for short times I believe 3500 or so Watts. So it can for a short time supply 29 amps at 120 VAC, if that is below the start up surge of your AC, your in with no soft start box.
For whatever it’s worth my inverter can easily start my 6kBTU AC, and doesn’t even come close to starting my 16KBTU one, but it has I believe an uncommonly high locked rotor amps.

Before going down the road of installing a big, expensive alternator and it’s external regulator, and the serpentine belt kit your going to have to have to run it, I strongly suggest you look into a Honda.
They are cheap, lightweight, dead easy to service and apparently last for thousands of hours if well maintained, which means oil changes. If it falls overboard, gets stolen or blows up, a $1,000 gets you a brand new one, and there is no installation either.

I also just as a personal belief believe that the actual hot output of these high amp alternators isn’t all that much different between the power they are rated at, meaning for example I’d bet that once up to operation temp that a 200 amp makes not much more if any more than a 150 amp for instance.
The reason I believe this is that heat is what limits all of their outputs, and the mass and fans are identical or nearly so on both, so it stands to reason that there is very little cooling difference between the two.
Maybe the 200 is more efficient due to its windings etc, but I bet that’s on paper and in the boat it really doesn’t amount to much.
When I bought mine, I was all prepared to buy a 200 as it was the biggest available, and I wanted the best. Well the seller, whom I trust talked me down to a 165 telling me that in reality that I’d get just as much power from it at less money. He said he would be glad to sell me the 200 as his profit is higher if I insisted.

[Curtwpk]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

None of us thought about it, but lately it was pointed out to us by a member, he posted pages out of the Yanmar installation manual, that was very specific and laid it all out.
That is the manual you need to find or get a copy of for your motor, the installation manual.

I found the installation manual for the 3MY. But there does not appear to be an install manual for the 2MY. Sure enough - there is a section on Power Take Off.

It says the PTO power limit is sensitive to the amount of overhang on the PTO pulley. That tells me that you are right - the limit is the front bearing

THe Manual is here in case someone wants the shortcut:
https://www.maritimepropulsion.com/files/pdf/1001374

Since there apparently is no manual for the 2MY, I'm thinking that they don't want ANY PTO other than the stock engine.

So. I'm liking your suggestion of the honda. I was hoping to avoid the added weight, noise, and gasoline but I think the big Alternator might be a dead end.

The boat is a new Gemini 35 Legacy. So weight is a factor.

Thanks for giving me an authoritative shortcut to the info I need.