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Old 22-07-2010, 08:53   #31
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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
If you are located in North American waters and/or your boat is insured, do not any LED navigation lights that are not USCG Certified. There are LED light fixtures listed by some of the posters that USCG certified. However, the Bebi Electronics LED lights are not USCG certified and their website carries the following information:
"If you have insurance and you are involved in a collision at night, your claim may be dis-allowed if you have a non-OEM light bulb, whether it is an LED, incandescent, halogen, or fluorescent, in the fixture, regardless of the real reason for the collision."
- - If you are not insured and operating outside the USA waters then use whatever you want . . .
I would take that advice with a grain of salt. Just because it's posted on a website doesn't make it fact. The above implies that you must use a "Perko" brand bulb in a Perko fixture, that a Sylvania bulb with the same specifications would allow your insurance company to deny a claim. That's "BS".

As for an insurance company denying a claim because you've done something wrong, again, "BS". Consider this - You're driving your car, you forgot to turn the lights on and you're involved in a collision. Can your insurance company refuse to pay the injured parties? No, it cannot. You may be at fault but you are still covered.


The "official" lighting regulations are performance based. The light must be visible at a certain distance ond over a certain arc (degrees). They don't mention "certification" by any agency. Certification is your assurance that the lights meet the requirements, but only if they are installed according to the manufacturer's specifications.
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Old 22-07-2010, 09:04   #32
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I don't think I read anywhere in the regs (22 or 30) that it said the light must be pre approved by the CG. If the light is visible for 3 miles it is legal. If you were to be hit it would be up to the person making the claim to prove that your light was not visible for 3 miles, not that it lacked CG approval. When you see "CG approved" it only means that the company making the light maintains that it meets the CG rule 22, not that the CG came out and tested the light and gave it a certificate of approval.

To meet the Rule 22 requirements it would only be necessary for the light to emit about 100 lumens, most LEDs used for this purpose emit 220 lumens. A 25 watt incandescent bulb emits 210 lumens.

Vasco, Love you salt shaker! I'm thinking of setting up a baby food jar with one of these in it. (18 High Power SMD LED BAU15S bulb Specifications)
You bring up a good point,

"The USCG does not certify anything. Independent laboratories test light fixtures, with a light source supplied by the submitting party. The results are then submitted to the USCG who may issue a certification. Only light fixtures, with a light source included by the manufacturer, can be submitted. If you go to any catalog selling incandescent, halogen, fluorescent, or dilythium crystal light bulbs, you will not see a single USCG certified light bulb, regardless of manufacturer. "
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Old 22-07-2010, 09:35   #33
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Waterguy: Where can I get the dilythium crystal lights? I bet they would be seen at 3 miles!
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Old 22-07-2010, 09:39   #34
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Waterguy: Where can I get the dilythium crystal lights? I bet they would be seen at 3 miles!
Sorry Don but at this time they are only being sold to the manufacturers of warp drive engines. Chuck
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Old 22-07-2010, 10:28   #35
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vasco, jkliens, zeehag...

should have been more explicit.

when we got the tickets we were anchored using various solar powered lights at deck level or hoisted ten feet up off the deck.

i've since switched to the owl light hoisted way up there and haven't been bothered since.
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Old 22-07-2010, 17:11   #36
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Zeehag - everyplace in the USA has different methods of boater enforcement and different officials have different personal interpretations of the various regulations. In Florida waters the USCG is not involved in normal boater compliance beyond safety inspections carried out by their Auxillary CG volunteer squadrons. Enforcement and regulation is the business of the Florida Marine Police if they are in the area and the local Sheriff's officers in other areas.
- - In Biscayne Bay where I have sailed and anchored dozens and more times, rarely have I been hassled or seen anybody else being hassled until one particular night when a Marine Police boat showed up and told everybody to turn off their various versions of "mid" lights and turn on their masthead Anchor lights or get ticketed.

- - Comparing automobile insurance to boat insurance is not valid as there are specific State Insurance Commission regulations and laws governing automobile insurance and how Insurance companies deal with claims. These do not apply to watercraft and in most cases there are few if any State level regulations on recreational marine insurance. Commercial marine operators do have State regulations along with Federal regulations. In real life (as Zeehag says sometimes) I have seen cruisers with claims denied for the most stupid and petty reasons and outright false reasons. And then you have to fight the insurance company at your own expense (if they even allow you to challenge them - depending upon the fine print in your policy). So the last thing you want to do with your boat which has a bank loan and required insurance coverage - is risk getting a claim denied and insurance canceled and then the Bank maybe wants to foreclose and calls the loan. Who needs that kind of potential hassles over a few amp hours of battery usage.
- - As to the bulbs not being individually USCG certified, that is correct - but the requirement is to use the same bulb as was in the light fixture when it was certified. That is what OEM means. And it is also why the OEM bulb costs anywhere from US$25 to $50 per bulb versus the same bulb by another manufacturer for 10 bucks.
- - There are listed LED Nav and Anchor lights in the early posts that are USCG certified. These companies went to the trouble and expense of getting their product certified - so if you want to move into the future of energy saving lights you can do it without any risk to your insurance coverage.
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Old 22-07-2010, 18:41   #37
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i would love to have glow in the dark anchor line.and anchor.and rode.and anything else to do with the anchor.not so much for safety, it would just be kewl.....lol, not helping much with imput, but it just popped into my head...
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Old 22-07-2010, 19:10   #38
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I used to live in Daytona about 10 years ago. They were not to big on cruisers hanging out more than a few days back then. I imagine it has not gotten any better. Daytona PD is probably just looking to hassle you so you move on.
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Old 22-07-2010, 20:26   #39
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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post

- - Comparing automobile insurance to boat insurance is not valid as there are specific State Insurance Commission regulations and laws governing automobile insurance and how Insurance companies deal with claims. These do not apply to watercraft and in most cases there are few if any State level regulations on recreational marine insurance. Commercial marine operators do have State regulations along with Federal regulations. In real life (as Zeehag says sometimes) I have seen cruisers with claims denied for the most stupid and petty reasons and outright false reasons. And then you have to fight the insurance company at your own expense (if they even allow you to challenge them - depending upon the fine print in your policy). So the last thing you want to do with your boat which has a bank loan and required insurance coverage - is risk getting a claim denied and insurance canceled and then the Bank maybe wants to foreclose and calls the loan. Who needs that kind of potential hassles over a few amp hours of battery usage.
- - As to the bulbs not being individually USCG certified, that is correct - but the requirement is to use the same bulb as was in the light fixture when it was certified. That is what OEM means. And it is also why the OEM bulb costs anywhere from US$25 to $50 per bulb versus the same bulb by another manufacturer for 10 bucks.
- - There are listed LED Nav and Anchor lights in the early posts that are USCG certified. These companies went to the trouble and expense of getting their product certified - so if you want to move into the future of energy saving lights you can do it without any risk to your insurance coverage.
I have personally called and asked BOTH of my insurance companies, Amica and Boat US, if I would be covered in the event of a night time accident if using aftermarket non-certified LED's in my existing nav fixtures. They were both very wishy washy on my very pointed coverage questions and would not confirm or deny it. But not confirming is enough for me.

BOTH companies advised me and told me NOT TO DO IT. Don't know whether I would be denied or not, but when both Amica and Boat US tell me to specifically NOT use aftermarket non-approved LED's in existing fixtures, I tend to do as I'm told... The guy at Boat US was quite knowledgeable and discussed the sectors, both horizontal and vertical that can often not be met with an aftermarket LED bulb in a fixture designed for an incandescent bulb.

It is not all about distance, as many think it is. Nav lights need to meet horizontal & vertical sectors and color parameters too. There are a few aftermarket bulbs certified for use in Aquasignal Series 40 fixtures, three to be exact, a red, a green and an all round but no stern and no bi-color. They are made by Dr. LED..

For me I think I'll play it safe as I personally knew an individual who was killed on the water, in a night time accident, and whose case involved nearly two days of forensic and general nav light testimony. If they were LED's, that did not meet the sectors, or even if there were doubt that they did, I am almost certain the drunk guy who killed my friends father would have walked..

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Old 22-07-2010, 21:54   #40
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opie91 -

i live in daytona beach. things have changed since you were here, thanks to the new state anchoring laws.

over a dozen boats are now 'permanently' anchored out in the halifax river (icw), some of us have put moorings down. since it's not a designated anchorage we are required to have proper anchor lights but other than that we have not been hassled at all.

one boat was checked for a holding tank by fish and wildlife.
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Old 23-07-2010, 12:33   #41
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I have personally called and asked BOTH of my insurance companies, Amica and Boat US, if I would be covered in the event of a night time accident if using aftermarket non-certified LED's in my existing nav fixtures. They were both very wishy washy on my very pointed coverage questions and would not confirm or deny it. But not confirming is enough for me.

BOTH companies advised me and told me NOT TO DO IT. Don't know whether I would be denied or not, but when both Amica and Boat US tell me to specifically NOT use aftermarket non-approved LED's in existing fixtures, I tend to do as I'm told... The guy at Boat US was quite knowledgeable and discussed the sectors, both horizontal and vertical that can often not be met with an aftermarket LED bulb in a fixture designed for an incandescent bulb. ............ .
Better than calling someone on the phone, read your policy. Look for an exclusion for unapproved modifications or equipment. If you find one post it here.

The policy is correct. The person on the phone may or not be correct.
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