Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-05-2019, 13:11   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 11,647
Amazon batteries warning

Just came up in my feed.

Huge difference between buying from Amazon directly as opposed to third-party vendors

https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...loding/587005/

Note these are LI batteries other than LiFePO4, which does not suffer from that danger, but there are just as wide variations in quality there wrt capacity and longevity.

And of course eBay, Ali, Walmart any "marketplace" has the same third-party vendor problem.

Buying from a source recommended by someone you trust is key, ideally on the basis of detailed published tests, e.g. https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Sams...-capacity-test

And watch out for counterfeits
__________________

john61ct is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 13:44   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Maryland
Boat: 1985 Ericson 32-3
Posts: 151
Re: Amazon batteries warning

I've been working with lithium ion issues since the beginning of 2013 and this issue is significant. The cheap power packs used to recharge mobile phones are a significant portion of the in-flight smoke events and some fires in hand luggage. Flight attendants are now very experienced at putting out these events. We've seen counterfeit batteries with a second wrapper to look like they've come from Panasonic and other name brands.

We've had a problem with (not counterfeit) our own major brand laptop batteries swelling, some smoked with a lot of heat, and a couple had small flames; I guess we just got a bad batch. I disassembled the one in the photo yesterday and you can see how the lower pouch cells have swollen.


ANY battery swollen means that it is at high risk of a thermal runaway. To kill it I punched holes in the cells to intentionally short it and allow it to go into thermal runaway while I could control the process on a stone surface outdoors. Dribbles of water boiled off right away. After it seemed to have run its course and cooled for a period of time, the thermal runaway re-started. Having been through this before it was not a surprise and I had a container of water to drop it into.

The word to the wise is to ALWAYS assume a lithium battery is able to go into runaway. I don't store mine for example near flammable fluids. If/when one does overheat, the cure is to submerge it for at least an hour. The water cools internal plastic separator material to less than it's melting temperature, stopping the thermal process from growing.

If you really want to inert a Li-ion battery, drown it in salt water (sea or add table salt) for at least a day or two. It will lose both the original temperature problem and electrical energy. Then drop it in a recycle bin not the trash or a fire.
__________________

Checkswrecks is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 13:59   #3
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15,352
Re: Amazon batteries warning

Amazon seems to be what social workers call "Persons in need of supervision". Before the big total solar eclipse (two?) years ago, they sold out on lots of "eclipse glasses" from various sources. And there was enough fuss about eye safety nationally, that Amazon actually stepped up and checked into third party sellers. If they couldn't show proof of eye safety, Amazon killed the listing AND notified the customers to throw out the product AND issued a full refund for them.

But on the other hand, they continue to list things like "Ultrafire" lithium batteries--which are fairly obvious counterfeits, since the manufacturer doesn't make batteries with the same labeling. And USB flash drivers with great claims like one terabyte for $9.95. And even when the rubes post a comment that it was an 8MB piece of trash...apparently no one at Amazon can figure out how to unlist the product and vendor.

They're just SO busy automating, cutting costs, reducing labor, pumping volume, that they've become a perfect example of a mideastern bazaar.

OTOH if you can spot a problem up front (not six months down the line) they're usually pretty good about returns and refunds. Proof that corporations can suffer from bipolar syndrome?

Right now Samsung has my tablet, presumably a genuine tablet bought from a genuine big box store. It seems that the battery swelled up enough so that it pushed the screen and frame apart by about 2-3mm on one side. And that's lithium from a source that certainly has had reason to look at them twice.
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 14:15   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 11,647
Re: Amazon batteries warning

wrt swelling with pouch and prismatic packaging

if it's only moderate say 15-20% max, not an indication of a problem

that is a design feature of the packaging, and includes LFP in which case no thermal runaway danger

Designing and building compression plates that leave some room for swelling is one of the installation challenges
john61ct is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 14:41   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Maryland
Boat: 1985 Ericson 32-3
Posts: 151
Re: Amazon batteries warning

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
wrt swelling with pouch and prismatic packaging

if it's only moderate say 15-20% max, not an indication of a problem

that is a design feature of the packaging, and includes LFP in which case no thermal runaway danger

Designing and building compression plates that leave some room for swelling is one of the installation challenges
As I'm sure you are aware, outer case packaging is designed to contain the maximum amounts of swelling related to charge and discharge. I was writing to the more general readers of this thread who have never been to a battery lab or factory.

If a battery is swollen to the point that the packaging shape is lost, there could be a number of possible causes, but the bottom line is to replace it.
Checkswrecks is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 17:02   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 11,647
Re: Amazon batteries warning

Pouches and prismatics, not talking cylindricals or already encased in a strong metal case.

CALB, GBS, Winston big plastic cases are designed to accommodate normal swelling, but a compression plate + straps setup is still a good idea.

Yes if a unit is swollen past the "slightly" point, it's lost a lot of capacity and should be replaced.
john61ct is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2019, 18:48   #7
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15,352
Re: Amazon batteries warning

john- Isn't it CALB now that has batteries in an aluminum case, not plastic, for better heat dissipation as well as strength? IIRC that's CALB and they were claiming a very much larger number of life cycles for it.
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2019, 02:07   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 11,647
Re: Amazon batteries warning

There are different lines, the hard plastic prismatics will continue.

I don't think the case material is a longevity factor itself, but maybe for propulsion useful for heat dissipation.

Eliminating the need for compression plates would be a very convenient feature
john61ct is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2019, 07:01   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 11,647
Re: Amazon batteries warning

Good chart and sorted listing here, relevant for the smaller consumer cylindrical cells, not so much for large House banks.

Good explanation about cells designed for energy / fast discharge (good for propulsion), as opposed to power / storage capacity, good for low C rates House bank usage.

Mostly non-LFP chemistries, but look for list items with nominal voltage in the 3.2Vpc range for LFP units.

http://liionbms.com/php/small_cylindrical_cells.php
john61ct is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2019, 07:12   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 11,647
Re: Amazon batteries warning

A good LFP example of testing protocols, informative charts.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...-3000mAh-(Blue)
john61ct is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2019, 13:47   #11
Marine service provider
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 7,520
Re: Amazon batteries warning

So john have you actually finally purchased your own cells to test ??
__________________

__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
batteries

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sailing the Amazon ??? somasized Other 41 25-10-2018 12:33
Getting Amazon Shipments in the Virgin Islands kkreeger Atlantic & the Caribbean 5 23-11-2012 20:13
What to Buy at Amazon ? Ex-Calif Off Topic Forum 42 16-03-2012 19:34
Amazon 37 Kerrrobert Monohull Sailboats 4 08-03-2012 12:01
Ronstan Above Deck Furler on Amazon? LostAtSeaAgain Product or Service Reviews & Evaluations 1 13-02-2012 15:00



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:35.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.