Alternator Size with LiFePo4

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by evm1024

There you have it....

China is fully capable of making "things" of very high quality. But to get that quality you need a bunch of things. Some companies put one or more of their engineers over in the plant in China to ensure that they get the quality they want.

I would expect that any cell made to have the A123 label on them would have very good QC at the plant in China. YMMV for others cells.

And even with an engineer on site their could be shortcuts taken by omission or commission - Just think back to Rocna's move to China....

I agree. They have proven they can but don't always make things good. Money is a big motivator.

It's interesting that you or someone else said that in huge packs, the batteries don't have to have as close of tolerances as small packs. If that's true, it explains a lot. They are building cells mainly for very large packs so their tolerances many not have to be that close. In that case they are not well suited to our small pack use and only consecutive serial numbered cells work well for us. Something to think about.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

No, you clearly misunderstood SOMETHING, I don't know what but SOMETHING. If a battery technology requires sequential serial numbered batteries to function correctly in a pack, it's just not going to work. Next time you order a set, specify sequential serial numbers and let us know what they say. Part of the beauty of mass production is that ALL the items produced come out the same within reason. If not something went wrong or the allowable tolerance is too large. We all know they won't be exact but if they aren't close enough to work in a pack, any pack with the same battery, then the tolerance is too great. Unfortunately that seems to be the case. Don't take my word for it, read what some of the pack builders that quit selling them said. My best guess is that most of the prismatic cells end users are able to buy are factory rejects.

Isnt trying to match batteries in a bank a desireable aim for any battery at all regardless of chemistry. Even with FLAs its prerrable to for example not just replace a single one that has died with a new one in a bank of old batteries.

In fact this is not jusl a battery thing but a general engineering 'best practice'. For example in my trade we try and match-
Turbine blades, weight etc,
Main rotor blades age, so they are similar age and flying characteristics are as close as possibe,
Engines are similar age and power output.
Etc
Otherwise it is more diffucult to match in the installation.

So although things doent have to be, and often arent matched this closely if we are going to spend this money and time in my opinion we should try and maximise our system as much as practically. Thats what most of us are aiming for and I would assume how MS rolls.

[john61ct]

I bet no consumers nor anybody selling direct to consumers ( sub full-container orders ) is getting the same top consistent quality cells off the production line as the Chinese government customers, especially military.

But I don't think that lower consistency quality is a fatal flaw for LFP's future.

In a 5-10 year time frame, I can't see any other non lead chemistry overtaking LFP in mobile house bank use cases.

Unless the likes of Tesla specifically target that very tiny niche.

[kmacdonald]

I think you're right John. The big customers get the best product. The small buyer (us) gets what's left.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by evm1024

...

Oh, what vendor was testing cells to match the parameters and assembling batteries with matched sets?

Hi there,

My supplier does this upon request:

Litrade Service

For a small premium he initializes the cells and matches the cells according to their inner resistance when ordering for all smaller cells with big volume sales. Only the very large cells cannot be ordered initialized and pre-selected because he orders the quantities to customer order and do not has them on stock.

All this importer / reseller buy container wise from winston, serial numbers are often in sequence, cells are usually fresh from the manufacturer. There are some of the sizes that are very popular and sold quickly (100Ah, 160Ah, 200Ah, 400Ah) so not stay long in stock, many of the cells sold already before arrival.

Prices are on the rise - what I see is about 20% in 2 years because of the high demand. 3 years ago the 1000Ah cell was 1100€, now they ask 1380€. The demand is higher than the supply, even there are more chemistries introduced, he started with Thundersky LiFeYPO4, and now he sells also CALB, Sinopoly LiFePO4, LTO etc.

GWL Power and Factor also offer initialized and pre-selected cells and drop-in batteries with integrated BMS.

They all started as niche market player but are quite big now in business, there is a large DIY demand.

Nothnagel-Marine sells prewired kits for instance, also cells and components
EV-Power GWL-Power, another big player with impressive success story. I cannot see a decline in demand.

[CatNewBee]

FRARON is a wholesale online dealer that has various chemistries in his portfolio, along with anything needed to built a battery, he also has drop in solutions and various brands of electronics in his program. They offer also installation service and cable configuration on demand.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Well, to draw any conclusion from that you would need to know why they failed. Probably the single biggest take-away from all the discussion here on CF is that LFP (and other Li types) need to be managed differently in some key ways compared to LA. Anyone taking an LFP cell and using it like an LA or other cell will result in a really high failure rate. It's taken quite a while for people to grasp that and build systems that properly manage them.


My own take is that we are looking at a technology that is still in it's infancy and has yet to really take off. Not something that has been tried and failed.

Agreed, there is always some faiures along the technology development path.

There's been a lot of aeroplanes crash over the years since Wilbur and Orvile. This has led to some changes in procedures, standards, new models etc.
Maybe LFP will be a popular chemistry, maybe not. Time will tell.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Agreed, there is always some faiures along the technology development path.

There's been a lot of aeroplanes crash over the years since Wilbur and Orvile. This has led to some changes in procedures, standards, new models etc.
Maybe LFP will be a popular chemistry, maybe not. Time will tell.

It's been 15+ years and the marine LFP industry is still struggling with LFP. When do we assume it's a niche market and not going to make it to the masses? With upward pricing pressures on LFP from the Battery Energy Storage Systems (BESS) market it's future seems to be on unstable ground. I hope Trojan is able to change this but at their price point I seriously doubt it.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Agreed, there is always some faiures along the technology development path.

There's been a lot of aeroplanes crash over the years since Wilbur and Orvile. This has led to some changes in procedures, standards, new models etc.
Maybe LFP will be a popular chemistry, maybe not. Time will tell.

Hard for me to see any negatives to LFP for boats other than cost. Much higher energy density than LA, safe as LA, flat charge curve with almost no taper, deliver 12.5/25 volts to 30% SoC, no sulfation, last longer than the owner - what more is required of a battery other than coming free in your box of Coco Puffs?

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by evm1024

And even with an engineer on site their could be shortcuts taken by omission or commission - Just think back to Rocna's move to China....

Rocna's was pure commission.

The Chinese will make what you want and you can get what you pay for. If you want matched cells, and you don't contractually have to accept unmatched cells, that is what you'll get and they will likely be sequentially produced. Assemblers like Lithionics then go through their own testing of each cell to ensure matching, which is part of any good QC program. With all the testing you did for your products, your customers would very likely have done some of their own, at least on some kind of spot basis. And that testing hardly meant your company had poor QC or that the technology you offered was soon part or unproven.

[kmacdonald]

Yes, LFP checks all the boxes with few exceptions. It requires a complex BMS, upgraded charging systems, and the knowledge to use them. The average boater just doesn't keep a boat long enough to enjoy a financial benefit from them.

Any new reports on Firefly batteries?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Yes, LFP checks all the boxes with few exceptions. It requires a complex BMS, upgraded charging systems, and the knowledge to use them. The average boater just doesn't keep a boat long enough to enjoy a financial benefit from them.

Any new reports on Firefly batteries?

I disagree with a lot of what you said here.
1) it doesn't require a bms ( a really good idea to have one ) my bms is not that big or expensive.
2) the only thing I had to do with my charging system was to change my controller set points.
3) what is the extra knowledge needed to use them beyond don't discharge below x voltage and don't charge above x voltage?
4) most who decide to unfit with Lfp do intend on having the vessel for many many years.
Myself I liveaboard and now that I have the boat I have wanted for many years will own it for many decades . Someday my kids will inherit it.

[john61ct]

The only downside is cost.

Can be money cost if you don't want to learn much.

Or if you enjoy spending your time learning and tinkering, the costs can come down quite a bit.

Still a long risky ROI for known-good cells in the NA market, compared to lead.

Maybe eventually a better / cheaper than LFP non-lead chemistry will come along and supplant both.

But not anytime soon, such basic tech changes takes many decades, and that fact for LFP is **only** due to the high cost differentials.

Not inherent flaws in the chemistry.

Note if the US had governments actively encouraging alternative energy tech the same way it did say the adoption of the private automobile, the adoption rate of LFP would be much further along.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by rgleason

A google search for Smart Regulator yields many, Cruz power, Ample Power etc.
but a google search for VSR Regulator yields the thomaston VSR Alternator website.

The last blog Jan 4 2019 is sad & good news.

"In short: the VSR Alternator Regulator is Going Pro."
Engineering Prototype of WS500 Regulator.
"4th generation VSR Regulator, featuring more robust electrical design and protections, enhanced communications and charge profile for better support of advanced battery chemistry (e.g. LiFeP04), as well as IP67 design points. And it is just one of a family of regulators we will be bringing to market soon."



Welcome To Wakespeed Offshore
"..are pleased to offer the Wakespeed WS500 advanced controller before the end of 2018, a game-changing product that, we believe, will change the way we all look at smart voltage regulation."


Not sure that have all the features of ASR
https://www.ebay.com/str/wakespeedoffshoreoutlet


Don't think it will activate a relay or interrupt the ignition wire to the alt.

I guess I was wrong, but right. There are two models. Al Thomaston advises:

You are correct. There are indeed two different technology ‘sources’ if you will being brought forward:
- A KISS regulators (the WS100) which was designed by Michael Frost
- The WS500 regulator based on my design work.

I have attached two flyers for each of the regulators to give a bit more insight.

With the passing of Michael I have taken the development responsibility for both – and will say, some of the ‘enhancements’ in the WS500 include learning’s I gained from reviewing the WS100 design!

Oh, and with regards to the website what you are seeing is the rush to the deadline for the Seattle boatshow. Though news of the products and our portfolio is really already out there, there are some details (like the Web page) which n
eed to be cleaned up in the next 7 days… Keep an eye out!

This is great, Al's work is still going to be available commercially. Actually it will probably help with general acceptance by the boating and RV communities because longer term support will be available and development will continue. I understand there is ongoing opensource development in certain directions, like an excellent Android App.


His next email:

The WS500 will begin shipping in February with limited availability through the rest of Q1 and broader general availability in Q2.

Today if you wish to order there are a few options, including: Wakespeed Offshore ( Welcome To Wakespeed Offshore ) and OceanPlanet Energy ( www.oceanplanetenergy.com )

Feel free to ask me any questions on this and I will answer as best I can. And if happen to be attending the Seattle Boat Show, stop by the Marine Servicecenter (https://marinesc.com ) booth and say High. Rick and I will be there on the weekends, maybe a few others days as well.

-al-
Viking Star
45' Monk Sr. / McQueen
mvVikingStar.blogspot.com

I hope someone can get to this boatshow and talk with Al, as it is too far for me to go. Please report back!
I don't see the WS500 on the website yet, but I think it has the feature set that is in the VSR Alternator Regulator plus additional development.


Ocean Planet does not list it yet either.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by rgleason

I guess I was wrong, but right. There are two models. Al Thomaston advises:

This is great, Al's work is still going to be available commercially. Actually it will probably help with general acceptance by the boating and RV communities because longer term support will be available and development will continue. I understand there is ongoing opensource development in certain directions, like an excellent Android App.


His next email:

I hope someone can get to this boatshow and talk with Al, as it is too far for me to go. Please report back!

I may be there at the show . Forward a list of questions and I will ask them if I get the chance to go to the show.