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Old 04-04-2012, 11:12   #16
mrm
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

Joe, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
Charge acceptance of LiFePO4 is simply great. Up to 1C charge current they will just take it. So, with a 400Ah bank, you could throw 400Amps of charge current at them and be done in approx an hour. Normally closer to 0.5C charging current is being used, both for a gain in longevity and ease of charging system design and setup.
Some will argue that you will not need a BMS, my opinion is that at least a mini BMS is a good thing and not very expensive nowadays. Under and overcharge protection is a must, though. Please, read through the thread I mentioned earlier. It will take some time but is well worth it and will explain many things.

Marius
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:21   #17
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

Xantrex echo charger: reports are that since the new owners didn't mess with it, it is one of the few Xantrex products that actually works!!! That's a stretch, but it is good news. Maine Sail reports that the instructions still are incorrect, but the thing works.

I looked for his description of his "issues" with the Xantrex manual that comes with the echo charger, but can't find it right now. Basically, he has had suggestions for improvement to them for years but they keep ignoring it. He installs a lot of them for his clients. I don't think it's rocket since, just a "better way" to explain how to wire them than is currently (pun?) published.

Heck, if you wire your house bank to the alternator output, as suggested, just use the B position on your 1-2-B switch or other switching arrangements I suggested that you may choose, and charge your reserve bank every few days. It'll hold a charge and uses essentially nothing when starting the engine. It's all in the Electrical 101 stuff i sent you to.

I haven't had any input or knowledge of the Sterling.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:25   #18
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

And, given all of this, can I assume that BMS means Battery Monitoring System?

Don't leave home without one.

Victron 600 or 602 are very good units.

Read Installing a Battery Monitor in the Electrical 101.

Are we having fun yet?
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:28   #19
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

MRM,

In reading through the other threads you provided it's clear I have a lot to learn about these batteries (and there's lots in those threads so I'll likely be re-reading them a couple times).

Quick question is, given the various types available, which seems to be the preferred vendor and how much am I looking at in approximate numbers for the 400Ah I'm looking for (in USD).

I greatly appreciate the input.

J
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:57   #20
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

Marius,

One more question. What BMS have you had good luck with, with these batteries?

J
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:58   #21
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

Well Joe this is where we hit the wall.
This new tech stuff comes with a price and thats why I'm hoping to get another 2 or 3 years out of these Energy 1's. Hopefully the price will be down by then.
The cost...are you sitting down?? is $1.20 per amp hour. Soooo you want 400AH, that will be $480. Doesn't sound that bad. Now my propulsion bank is 144V which means I need 48 of these darlings at 200AH ea in series.
48x200AH = 9600 x $1.20 = $11,500. But if you do the life expectancy of 3000 (full) cycles * 2 times a week for 8 months (Bay weekend Sailor)= 46 years of life expectancy. A Cruiser at 365 Days (full cycles)= 8 years. Almost 2 times the life of LA's and twice the power available. Of course this pricing doesn't include the BMS (BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM) system but add another couple hundred (in your case) for that.

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:13   #22
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

Steve,

Luckily I need 12v so if I read you correct I'm looking at about $2000,00?

If so that's pretty doable.

J
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:28   #23
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

Oops, You are correct. To many things going on..$2000 not $480.
4 bats x 2 (to make 2-12V bats) = 8 x 200AH ea = 1600 x $1.20 = $1920

Steve
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:49   #24
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFish View Post
MRM,

Quick question is, given the various types available, which seems to be the preferred vendor and how much am I looking at in approximate numbers for the 400Ah I'm looking for (in USD).

I greatly appreciate the input.

J
Joe, there are basically two big names in prismatic LiFePO4 cell production, both far in the East so, depending on your personal preferences, the best vendor will be the one which suits you best (price?, after sales support?, warranty terms? reputation? maybe buy directly from manufacturer?).
I will give you a couple of links, ask for quotes. At the moment I would expect a good quote to be approximately 1.1-1.2 US$ per Ah/cell. One important thing is to order a set of cells closely matched in a factory. Reasons for this will become obvious during lecture of that LiFePO4 thread I referenced earlier.

cleanenergy GmbH |Produkte
MiniBMS
Lithium Batteries, Empowering EVs
3xE - electric cars - intro

And yes, BMS stands for a battery monitoring/management system.

Hope this helps,
Marius
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:57   #25
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

MRM,
BMS is Battery Management System I believe.

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE
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Old 04-04-2012, 13:06   #26
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyprdrv View Post
MRM,
BMS is Battery Management System I believe.

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE
Both names are used, for a somewhat different functionality. Monitoring will be mostly about under/over voltage and over temperature protection. Management will usually expand on those and include some form of cell balancing.
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Old 04-04-2012, 13:17   #27
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

A brief look around for manufacturers shows these guys as one of the main manufacturers. Anyone used these yet?

(I may move this over to the other thread)...

Winston Battery Limited

Alliance Renewable Energy sells them.. http://www.alliancerenewableenergy.com/
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Old 04-04-2012, 13:29   #28
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

Marius,

In searching around I'm seeing two different kids of batteries here. LiFeYPO4 and LiFePO. What's the difference?

J

Edit:

Found the answer elsewhere and thought I'd pass it along:

"the main difference between lifepo4 and lifeypo4 is additional Yttrium at the cathode of the lifeypo4 cells to speed up electron transfer especially at cold temperatures. They are the better choice..."

LiFeYPO4 is the newer technology and does not suffer apparently from the cold as the older cells did.
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Old 04-04-2012, 13:33   #29
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFish View Post
Marius,

In searching around I'm seeing two different kids of batteries here. LiFeYPO4 and LiFePO. What's the difference?

J
Y stands for a chemical element Yttrium. An improvement over the original LiFePO4 design and a spark to a huge patent war. Anyway, go for it (yt? )
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Old 04-04-2012, 16:23   #30
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Re: All new wiring, batteries and engine

If you want to minimize charging time you will spend about 30% more than wet lead batteries and buy AGM or gel. And if you pamper then and ensure they are never overcharged, they still may not last as long. Gel apparently are better than AGM *if* your charging system is set up for them.

Lithium-whatever batteries are still damned expensive and each maker has conflicting claims about how to treat them and how long they will last, so consider the price of the BMS that the maker recommends, it may double the price of the batteries and put them out of consideration.

As to matching alternator size...I haven't heard a battery maker suggest charging any of them at more than 25% of the C rating, which would be some 100A for you 400A bank. If you think you may need three...get three from the start so they are matched. That puts you at 600AH and for best life you don't want to cycle them below 50%, which is 300AH, and even a 75A alternator would meet that requirement as long as it has a proper external regulator.

I'd stop at one alternator unless you've really got room to install two. The big mistake that many folks make is not properly sizing the alternator pulley. The Leece-Nelville large frame alternators seem to give a lot of bang for the buck, but whatever you look at, look at the data sheets for it, and if necessary have a custom pulley made up for it so that you get optimum power at your normal engine speed, without spinning it too quickly during maximum engine speeds.

i.e. if the alternator is spec'd for full output at 3500 shaft rpm, and you prefer to charge at idle speed of 1000 engine rpm...you need to match up the flywheel size and the alternator pulley size to make that happen, at that ratio. If the engine runs at 2500 rpm during cruising and 3500 rpm fighting headwinds...that could mean "the right" pulley ratio also is turning the alternator at 12,000 rpm, which could burn some alternators out. So compromise may be required, or better choosing an alternator that matches your engine speed range while still putting out full power.

Regardless of the battery type, or capacity you decide to go with.
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