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Old 20-01-2014, 19:44   #16
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re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Originally Posted by Kevin84 View Post
Hey Rick, something to caution you about on your assumption that Lion batteries can be safely discharged to 20% capacity. I worked at Boeing on the Dreamliner during the battery problems. Those type batteries do not like high discharges. For example, Boeing recommends the battery to be scrapped and replaced if the charge drops too low. They are also sensitive to overcharging. Both being undercharged and overcharged can result in a thermal runaway. Be careful where you install them. I would also keep a temperature monitor on them with an audible and visual alarm I'm case the temp spikes on one. I will caveat thus by saying I have no direct experience with that brand of battery, only the ones Boeing uses.

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Hey Kevin84,

Thanks for the input. Yes I have both temperature and voltage monitoring for each cell on a small network back to my BMS. It also does top balancing(not the best way, I know) of each cell to help maintain a balanced system. I am using LiFePo4 3.55V automotive grade cells which are not as efficient as the Boeing type but inherently safer and a more stable chemical mix, (so I am told). And for safety I have set my alarms at 30%/95% range to stay in the safe range.

Great and interesting feedback, thanks again !

Rick
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Old 20-01-2014, 19:53   #17
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re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
A couple of points:

- I have a CruisAir 18kBTU self-contained unit with a March pump, both at 240V/60Hz and I can run these of my Victron Quattro 12/3000.

- The 12/5000 is 220/50Hz. So is my 12/3000, but I reprogrammed it to 240V and 60Hz which is a 10 second job. I'm not sure if the 5kW also supports this but I would assume it does.

My genset outputs 240V/60Hz which goes into the Quattro (floating, ungrounded output). My shore power can be 110-240V and goes into a 3.6kW isolation transformer that outputs 220-240V which also goes into the Quattro.

The Quattro is a 12V EU model on which I have the computer interface and using the software from Victron, I set it to 240V and 60Hz; matched the charger profile to my batteries etc.

So the output is 240V 60Hz, which goes into a Victron Auto Transformer which creates a new neutral for 120-0-120 volt service.

I am now contemplating switching to induction cooking and thus 50A service…
Cool, what an intriguing setup. Are you grounding the neutral center tap on the autotransformer and what do your GFI/ELCI's think about it?

From what I can extrapolate here it seems that if you had to find 220/50 in Europe the input voltage could be simply changed back to 50 hz and you could still operate all of your 120 and 240 V 60 hz equipment without fear of burnout?

I am going to have spend some serious time with the setup manuals when we start commissioning.

And I havent played with induction heat but I really like its practicality. No hot elements to worry about in heavy seas.

have fun !!

Rick
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Old 20-01-2014, 20:28   #18
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re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Originally Posted by rickbase1 View Post
Cool, what an intriguing setup. Are you grounding the neutral center tap on the autotransformer and what do your GFI/ELCI's think about it?

From what I can extrapolate here it seems that if you had to find 220/50 in Europe the input voltage could be simply changed back to 50 hz and you could still operate all of your 120 and 240 V 60 hz equipment without fear of burnout?

I am going to have spend some serious time with the setup manuals when we start commissioning.

And I havent played with induction heat but I really like its practicality. No hot elements to worry about in heavy seas.

have fun !!

Rick
I am not grounding anything. GFI's etc. work normal as they compare current between the two conductors only. But the test-knob won't work anymore as it normally diverts some power to the ground wire, which isn't a return path anymore.
You need multiple serious faults before they provide additional benefit over the isolation transformer anyway.

In Europe, using A/C or another device that can't stand 50Hz very well, I would need to operate on inverter while using a battery charger that can keep up and which is okay with 50Hz. This is what I have but only for a 50A charge current.

Induction means much less heat and moisture inside the boat, plus, no more risk from propane. I'm testing on a portable induction unit right now and we love it
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Old 20-01-2014, 20:38   #19
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Re: Marvair DC AC units

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ok, here is a possible show stopper. The pricing I found says that they are $ 6,800 each !

That is more than 3 times the cost of my units.

here is where I found the pricing.

DC Air Conditioner

Is this possibly a misprint ??
Local Sales Service Agent..........
Be interesting to know why they would be 3 times the price.

i Marine Airconditioning
Unit J3 No.1 Boatworks Drive
Coomera QLD 4209
Phone: + 61 (0) 448 882 056
: + 61 (0) 412 723 673
Email: gary@iMarineAirconditioning.com.au
doc@iMarineAirconditioning.com.au
Website: iMarine Airconditioning

J
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Old 20-01-2014, 20:52   #20
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re: Aircon Without a Genset?

richbase1, you mention cooling fans for your alternators, which is a very good idea. Lower temps means longer life. Something you might want to think about is a timer so that the fans run for 10 or 15 minutes after shut down to prevent heat sink. Engines and alternators go to their highest temps after the engine shuts down, and the cooling water/air suddenly stops moving. A fan running for 15 minutes after shut down will keep the heat spikes to a minimum. Just a thought. ______Grant.
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Old 21-01-2014, 01:03   #21
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re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
...The Quattro is a 12V EU model on which I have the computer interface and using the software from Victron, I set it to 240V and 60Hz; matched the charger profile to my batteries etc.
I have the Victron MultiPlus and am wondering if the Quattro works very differently.

So please Jedi can you confirm with your set up that your Quattro does not in fact convert from 50 to 60 cycles but can produce either output frequency if it is acting as an inverter with a 12 volt input. So a second shorepower charger is needed to keep up with the load on the batteries.
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Old 21-01-2014, 02:25   #22
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re: Aircon Without a Genset?

Hi Rick,
all looks great but why not slip in hybrid's instead of the standard yanmar's, the system would give you two diesel motors and 2 electric motors and hydrogeneration from both props , also 2 generators from the diesel motors this will give lots more options for everything Google yanmar hybrid UK, they know their stuff and i think it will suit your boat perfectly. they have shaft and sail drive options and are familiar with lithium etc

Allan
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Old 21-01-2014, 02:40   #23
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re: Aircon Without a Genset?

Hi Rick, this is the type of system Allan
Click image for larger version

Name:	Package+Yanmar+shaft+Parallel-Serial.png
Views:	127
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Old 21-01-2014, 04:16   #24
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Re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
I have the Victron MultiPlus and am wondering if the Quattro works very differently.

So please Jedi can you confirm with your set up that your Quattro does not in fact convert from 50 to 60 cycles but can produce either output frequency if it is acting as an inverter with a 12 volt input. So a second shorepower charger is needed to keep up with the load on the batteries.
Inverter/chargers never convert incoming power. They use transfer switches to simply switch the incoming power to their output.

What I wrote is that you can change the frequency and voltage that the inverter/charger uses/produces, where the frequency can be changed from 50 to 60 Hz and vica versa. The voltage can only be changed over a smaller percentage, like from 220V to 240V, but not from 110V to 220V. This is why I added the transformers.

Let me add that this also works for the power assist mode, i.e. The inverter will assist shorepower when it is overloaded by adding up to 3kW during surges. It needs to be synchronized with the incoming phase and will do so for either 50 or 60 Hz when it is configured for the same value.

Also, these units will test incoming power and may reject it when the voltage is too low or too high. The values for that can also be re-programmed.

If you want to run 60Hz gear on 60Hz power while using a 50Hz shore power feed, then I use a separate charger and the Quattro as inverter.

The only other way to convert frequency is how megayachts etc. do this, which is to rectify the incoming shorepower and invert it into their "standard" input for the rest of the system. What we do is a poor mans emulation.
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Old 21-01-2014, 12:32   #25
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Re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Originally Posted by gjordan View Post
richbase1, you mention cooling fans for your alternators, which is a very good idea. Lower temps means longer life. Something you might want to think about is a timer so that the fans run for 10 or 15 minutes after shut down to prevent heat sink. Engines and alternators go to their highest temps after the engine shuts down, and the cooling water/air suddenly stops moving. A fan running for 15 minutes after shut down will keep the heat spikes to a minimum. Just a thought. ______Grant.
Gjordan,

Excellent idea for the timers, a 10 minute Off delay would be perfect. I thought about an automotive headlight timer, but I am 24 V. Maybe Crouzet has one of the little flat pack modules.

Thanks !!

Rick
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Old 21-01-2014, 12:36   #26
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Re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Hi Rick, this is the type of system Allan
Attachment 74387
alcmck, Looks interesting. I wonder if there is a saildrive adapter for the motors.

From what I hear, reviews are mixed and I am wary about that single point of failure. Do you have any experience with them?
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Old 21-01-2014, 12:54   #27
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Re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Inverter/chargers never convert incoming power. They use transfer switches to simply switch the incoming power to their output.

What I wrote is that you can change the frequency and voltage that the inverter/charger uses/produces, where the frequency can be changed from 50 to 60 Hz and vica versa. The voltage can only be changed over a smaller percentage, like from 220V to 240V, but not from 110V to 220V. This is why I added the transformers.

Let me add that this also works for the power assist mode, i.e. The inverter will assist shorepower when it is overloaded by adding up to 3kW during surges. It needs to be synchronized with the incoming phase and will do so for either 50 or 60 Hz when it is configured for the same value.

Also, these units will test incoming power and may reject it when the voltage is too low or too high. The values for that can also be re-programmed.

If you want to run 60Hz gear on 60Hz power while using a 50Hz shore power feed, then I use a separate charger and the Quattro as inverter.

The only other way to convert frequency is how megayachts etc. do this, which is to rectify the incoming shorepower and invert it into their "standard" input for the rest of the system. What we do is a poor mans emulation.
Thanks for the clarification. The shorepower boost looks intriguing and should help with overcoming trips in remote areas with low current and voltage drops. I saw that when I was sizing the Multi's Out1 and 2 Main ELCI's.

It is encouraging that your 18K unit will run on your 12/3000. Do you know if it is a capacitor start?
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Old 21-01-2014, 16:11   #28
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Re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Originally Posted by rickbase1 View Post
Thanks for the clarification. The shorepower boost looks intriguing and should help with overcoming trips in remote areas with low current and voltage drops. I saw that when I was sizing the Multi's Out1 and 2 Main ELCI's.

It is encouraging that your 18K unit will run on your 12/3000. Do you know if it is a capacitor start?
Every A/C has both start- and run-capacitors…
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Old 21-01-2014, 17:52   #29
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Re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Originally Posted by rickbase1 View Post
Hey Kevin84,

Thanks for the input. Yes I have both temperature and voltage monitoring for each cell on a small network back to my BMS. It also does top balancing(not the best way, I know) of each cell to help maintain a balanced system. I am using LiFePo4 3.55V automotive grade cells which are not as efficient as the Boeing type but inherently safer and a more stable chemical mix, (so I am told). And for safety I have set my alarms at 30%/95% range to stay in the safe range.

Great and interesting feedback, thanks again !

Rick
That is correct; the Boeing batts were using Lithium-cobalt cells, whereas nearly all marine batts are now using LiFePO4.
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Old 23-01-2014, 16:07   #30
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Re: Aircon Without a Genset?

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Hi Rick,
all looks great but why not slip in hybrid's instead of the standard yanmar's, the system would give you two diesel motors and 2 electric motors and hydrogeneration from both props , also 2 generators from the diesel motors this will give lots more options for everything Google yanmar hybrid UK, they know their stuff and i think it will suit your boat perfectly. they have shaft and sail drive options and are familiar with lithium etc

Allan
interesting but too late for a major change. Engines are on site and go in next week.

Thanks anyway,
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