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Old 23-01-2016, 10:56   #46
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

We're in the process of spec'ing out a new ocean going catamaran for multi-country cruising.

We want the ability to travel anywhere and stay out for extended periods.

Peak 120v loads are 9kw with average in the 2-4kw range.

I would appreciate comments on the specifications we are considering:

* Shore Power to be flexible 125v/60Hz to 220v/50Hz converted to 120v/60Hz via Asea or Atlas12kva isolation transformer with cycle conversion.

* Genset :Northern Lights 12kva 125v/60Hz.

* House system: 24v Mastervolt LiFePo4 batteries (4x5000w)

* Inverter/Chargers: Two Mastervolt 24/4000 Combis (not in parallel - feeding separate 120v panels)

* House 12v: Minor consumption supported by two Mastervolt AGM's with 24v/12v converters from 24v house bank.

* Solar 1.2kw panels via Mastervolt solar controller.

* Engines (two volvo 110hp) with 12v and Mastervolt 24vxx110Amp alternators.

* Whole system under Mastervolt control with BMS for lithium batteries.

The majority of boat systems will be 24v based, winches, windlass, watermakers, dive compressor etc.

Thanks
Paul


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Old 24-01-2016, 23:01   #47
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

Quote:
Originally Posted by botanybay View Post
Yes, I am doing the same on a bit larger scale...

Victron isolation transformed (automatic voltage selection 240/120) at 3600 watts

Victron skylla-i 100 amp @28v charged

Victron quattro 8kva

6kva 50hz / 8kva 60hz westerbeke generator currently 230v 50hz configured.

Mode 1) 32 amps 110/60hz, 16 amps 208 60hz, 16 amps 240 60hz, 16 amps 230 50hz input

Battery charger makes 100 amps at 28v consuming 3500 watts max

Inverter makes 230/50hz to 8kva continuous (average over time less than battery charger can provide)

If generator running can add an additional 5kva (80% of 6kva)

Mode 2) 110/60hz, 240/60hz, 230/50hz input

3600 watt Isolation transformer to shore input of quattro

Available power 8kva + 3.6 kV a

Battery charger off.

Generally run in mode 1, there is an efficiency hit but boat is running native voltage and frequency.

If need higher peak than inverter can handle then either start the generator or switch isolation transformer output from charger to inverter.

Interestingly max power has shore power to charger and generator to the inverter at the same time.

Most of the equipment on the boat is 50/60 hz comparable and will run down to 208 and be within spec, the microwave and washer/dryer being the exceptions.

Currently installing system which is requiring a significant upgrade to the DC infrastructure. Upgrading the ac system to modern specs (already had elci's but having to add some additional circuit protection for new equipment)

Overall a fun project, hope to have fully operational before first club cruise of the season (easter)
Well, the system has been up and running for almost two years. The battery bank is still two strings of 6v golf cart batteries which I installed about 6 months later.

Overall it has been a really nice system.

Dock power sags are definitely not a problem in the make all power into DC and then make AC mode.

Running off of 208v 60hz has worked very well for the majority of the equipment aboard, however, the microwave definitely does not like it which is not surprising.

One air conditioner pulls about 65A off the battery charger. If the hot water heater kicks in that is about 85A. I can run both air conditioners without pulling too hard on the batteries and the charger keeps up on average.

As noted, without additional programming or sensing it is difficult to tell if shore power went away and that can quickly pull the batteries down.

My plan is to have a cascaded load shed system based upon battery state of charge. Something like:

95% of charge shed the hot water heater
90% of charge shed the forward air conditioner
80% of charge shed the aft air conditioner
50% of charge shed the rest of the 220v circuit

The holding plate system is running off the 220V circuit so if I shed the whole 220v circuit the fridge/freezer will start to warm up.

What has really worked well is with the 8kva generator (6kva at 50hz) running while on the hook I am able to charge very rapidly while also running the holding plates and the like.

I may add a 7kva isolation transformer to the mix just for when I am running both of the air conditioners in heat mode as a liveaboard. That would allow that isolation transformer to pull 32A while the transformer connected to the battery charger could pull another 16A for a total of 48A or basically my current shore power connection.
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Old 25-01-2016, 06:19   #48
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catalysis View Post
We're in the process of spec'ing out a new ocean going catamaran for multi-country cruising.

We want the ability to travel anywhere and stay out for extended periods.

Peak 120v loads are 9kw with average in the 2-4kw range.

I would appreciate comments on the specifications we are considering:

* Shore Power to be flexible 125v/60Hz to 220v/50Hz converted to 120v/60Hz via Asea or Atlas12kva isolation transformer with cycle conversion.

* Genset :Northern Lights 12kva 125v/60Hz.

* House system: 24v Mastervolt LiFePo4 batteries (4x5000w)

* Inverter/Chargers: Two Mastervolt 24/4000 Combis (not in parallel - feeding separate 120v panels)

* House 12v: Minor consumption supported by two Mastervolt AGM's with 24v/12v converters from 24v house bank.

* Solar 1.2kw panels via Mastervolt solar controller.

* Engines (two volvo 110hp) with 12v and Mastervolt 24vxx110Amp alternators.

* Whole system under Mastervolt control with BMS for lithium batteries.

The majority of boat systems will be 24v based, winches, windlass, watermakers, dive compressor etc.

Thanks
Paul


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Look at the system and see if you really need a 12kva generator. If you will really average 2-4kW and you have sufficient inverter "surge" capacity to support peak demand then a 12kva generator is probably going to be under loaded most of the time. Generators want to run at least 50% of rated load for best efficiency and long life. But you should run the calculations again because I doubt the 2-4kW average (when genset is on). That's about the average for my little 42 foot monohull.
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Old 25-01-2016, 08:35   #49
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

Thanks transmitterdan,

The Northernlights 9kva and 12kva share the same diesel frame so I was considering just going with the larger unit to allow shorter run times for charging lithium batteries at higher rates.

The lithium batteries will accept 4.8kw alone and so with house usage at 5kw during morning and evening hrs we came close to the 9kva genset limit.

But you're right I could certainly stage the charging and usage to keep the load down.
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Old 26-01-2016, 03:38   #50
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

If you stick with the Mastervolt Li batteries, note that there have been some issues having to do with being a single-bus configuration, and with the Alpha Pro alternator regulators. In some instances the alt reg(s) have somehow not responded to the network signal from the BMS to turn off when the batteries are full. Apparently when this happened the BMS then isolated the batteries to prevent overcharge....leaving the alternator(s) running while still being connected to the loads, without the battery. The resulting voltage spike damaged many devices as they were on the same bus as the alternator(s).

I think that there is a configuration that MV has come up with, by adding additional contactors for charge sources that are somehow controlled by the BMS.

We have also had some clients switch to our dual-bus batteries, which can play nice with an otherwise Mastervolt or Victron system.

Anyhow, just make sure they have addressed the alt reg issue and/or the configuration so that the alts cannot wind up connected directly to loads if the batteries need to cut out.
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Old 26-01-2016, 09:10   #51
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

Thanks OceanPlanet, I'll certainly check. How long ago did this happen?
Paul



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Old 26-01-2016, 09:38   #52
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catalysis View Post
We're in the process of spec'ing out a new ocean going catamaran for multi-country cruising.

We want the ability to travel anywhere and stay out for extended periods.

Peak 120v loads are 9kw with average in the 2-4kw range.

I would appreciate comments on the specifications we are considering:

* Shore Power to be flexible 125v/60Hz to 220v/50Hz converted to 120v/60Hz via Asea or Atlas12kva isolation transformer with cycle conversion.

* Genset :Northern Lights 12kva 125v/60Hz.

* House system: 24v Mastervolt LiFePo4 batteries (4x5000w)

* Inverter/Chargers: Two Mastervolt 24/4000 Combis (not in parallel - feeding separate 120v panels)

* House 12v: Minor consumption supported by two Mastervolt AGM's with 24v/12v converters from 24v house bank.

* Solar 1.2kw panels via Mastervolt solar controller.

* Engines (two volvo 110hp) with 12v and Mastervolt 24vxx110Amp alternators.

* Whole system under Mastervolt control with BMS for lithium batteries.

The majority of boat systems will be 24v based, winches, windlass, watermakers, dive compressor etc.

Thanks
Paul


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Why would you want a third diesel engine on board a weight-sensitive catamaran?

I would add alternator capacity to both main engines and just use them.

You have to be careful not to exceed the side loading limits of the front power takeoff, but there are a few tricks you can use. 5kW of power out of a couple of school bus alternators (on the same engine!) would fulfill your requirements nicely, and would be an acceptable load for a 100 horsepower engine I think (which is probably a turbocharged and intercooled 60 horsepower engine, right?). For intense charging of that LiFePo bank and/or short term heavy loads, you could run both engines and generator 10kW.

A decent size battery bank and a ganged bank of charger/inverters will then handle the peak loads, as long as you are generating more than the average load.

I agree with the poster above that a 12kW genset is massive overkill.
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Old 26-01-2016, 09:39   #53
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catalysis View Post
Thanks OceanPlanet, I'll certainly check. How long ago did this happen?
Paul



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Don't know dates. Probably a year ago or so...one such instance was on one of the Gunboat 55's.

I believe some MV Li boats changed to Balmar alt regs for charging Li, so that the "belt load manager" setting could be used to scale back the output enough to reduce overheating of the alts.

On Gunboat 55-05, they are going with our new OPE-Li3 batteries, modified (shortened) American Power 42i J180 160A x 24V alternators with custom mounting brackets/pulleys & MC624 alt. regs (alts just barely fit into the stock position), Solbian SP surface-mount panels, Genasun MPPT controllers, and a Watt & Sea racing hydrogenerator.
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Old 26-01-2016, 09:45   #54
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

Btw, here is an example of the modified AP 42i alt. showhorned into the stock alt position
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Old 28-01-2016, 21:42   #55
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

Bruce,

Why did you put that monster alt in the stock position rather than on its own dedicated bracket and belted to a crankshaft dual pulley conversion take-off as is typically done? You've got a 13HP unbalanced sideload on the water pump pulley, no?

Thanks,
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Old 29-01-2016, 00:27   #56
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

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Bruce,

Why did you put that monster alt in the stock position rather than on its own dedicated bracket and belted to a crankshaft dual pulley conversion take-off as is typically done? You've got a 13HP unbalanced sideload on the water pump pulley, no?

Thanks,
Journeyman
Can always have two alts, sure. However, often there isn't much room around these engines and need to keep as compact as possible. The WP is on the unloaded side of the belt. You could never have the WP on the loaded side. On some of these kits there is a heavy duty idler pulley on the loaded side, which: 1) adds wrap to the alt pulley, 2) loads the crank pulley more vertically, and 3) guides the belt aground an obstacle like a RW pump, etc.

However on the pictured setup all is working great.
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Old 29-01-2016, 03:40   #57
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

Other tip for Catalysis --

I like the general architecture of his system, but the charger/inverter plays a crucial role in it, and it's a SINGLE POINT OF FAILURE. They are somewhat failure prone (my Victron Multiplus failed dead after less than two years and had to be taken out and shipped off for repair, an enormous PITA).

I would suggest adding one or two of them and ganging them together. That will add redundancy and also increase capacity. They are specifically designed to be used this way.
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Old 29-01-2016, 03:45   #58
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanPlanet View Post
Can always have two alts, sure. However, often there isn't much room around these engines and need to keep as compact as possible. The WP is on the unloaded side of the belt. You could never have the WP on the loaded side. On some of these kits there is a heavy duty idler pulley on the loaded side, which: 1) adds wrap to the alt pulley, 2) loads the crank pulley more vertically, and 3) guides the belt aground an obstacle like a RW pump, etc.

However on the pictured setup all is working great.
Looks good to me

Did Yanmar sign off on the front pulley loads? These engines are somewhat weak there, and a blown front crank bearing will ruin your whole day. There are techniques to reduce the loading in case that doesn't work.

One really good thing about larger alternators is that the load they produce on the engine starts to be an acceptable load by itself, so you can dual-purpose the engine for prime power generation besides propulsion. A very efficient way to use the machinery, especially on a weight-sensitive performance cat.
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Old 29-01-2016, 04:49   #59
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

To be honest, we leave the "signing off" to the builder and their engine suppliers. And I'm pretty sure that some of these are technically outside of warranty.

However, many many engines, old & new, have added high power alts and I have not heard confirmation of any actual failed bearing.

I personally raced twice around the world with an added 130A x 24V alt on a Yanmar 3GM. Never had a problem, and AFAIK, it has never had an issue since

B

Quote:
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Looks good to me

Did Yanmar sign off on the front pulley loads? These engines are somewhat weak there, and a blown front crank bearing will ruin your whole day. There are techniques to reduce the loading in case that doesn't work.

One really good thing about larger alternators is that the load they produce on the engine starts to be an acceptable load by itself, so you can dual-purpose the engine for prime power generation besides propulsion. A very efficient way to use the machinery, especially on a weight-sensitive performance cat.
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Old 29-01-2016, 08:20   #60
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Re: Aircon from Inverter from Batter Charger

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Originally Posted by OceanPlanet View Post
To be honest, we leave the "signing off" to the builder and their engine suppliers. And I'm pretty sure that some of these are technically outside of warranty.

However, many many engines, old & new, have added high power alts and I have not heard confirmation of any actual failed bearing.

I personally raced twice around the world with an added 130A x 24V alt on a Yanmar 3GM. Never had a problem, and AFAIK, it has never had an issue since

B
OceanPlanet,

Yes, its too bad more mfgs don't allow for more engine space to accommodate after market customizations. BTW I had a drink once with a senior member of Yanmar USA who sorta blurted out " you can't hurt these engines" when the subject of side loads came up. Of course he asked to not be quoted immediately after.

Jman
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