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Old 17-01-2020, 15:39   #76
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

The article says, "Sulfation occurs in lead acid batteries that are left in a discharged state (with each crystal diminishing the battery’s capacity) or when batteries are chronically undercharged."

If you are taking issue with the omission of the word, "permanent" that seems nit picky. Sulfation (as opposed to 'permanent sulfation') is a term used universally across the marine industry, to describe the phenomenon, and within that context, it is used in the article correctly. In fact, Andrew Frankenstein from Lifeline contacted me to indicate the concept was clearly and concisely described within the article. I think the words he used were, "You nailed it".
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Old 17-01-2020, 16:19   #77
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

Same with that endless nitpicking about the fact that usage of the term PSOC

implies the habitual if not chronic extent that causes harm, while technically literally not.

Fact is most of us would not be familiar with the term at all except for the extent it causes problems, so yes when we talk about sulfation, you can infer the "long / hard enough to cause problems" part intended.
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Old 17-01-2020, 16:37   #78
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

Just lost a long post sharing my experiences closely monitoring a 90AH g27 Northstar AGM battery. SO here's the pissed off briefer version.

I got over 1200 deep cycles over 6 years, and was not afraid of the 50% state of charge boogeyman.

It absolutely loved high amp recharges from a well depleted state. It got petulant when it received low and slow solar recharges, een if amps tapered to the prescribed level daily or nearly so.

It was the sole battery for both house and engine its last 4 years.

When voltage held under X amount of load for X amount of amp hours removed, the cure, was a high amp rechrge from a well depleted state, 50% or less. no less than 40 amps, 65 amps was preferred and I would have used more if I had them available.

The Odyssey reconditioning procedure had slight but noticeable effects, but mostly on the time it took amps to taper to 0.5% of capacity. i did not really drain to 10V as prescribed, usually 10.5 or higher before instantly applying 40 or 65 amps to 14.7v.

The last year of its life amps would not taper to 0.5%, but started to stop tapering at higher and higher levels and then start rising, along with battery temperature. Voltage held during engine starting eventually fell into the 7's on a warm day with a hot engine and I relieved the battery from duty relegating it to workshop 12v source duty not more than 2 months ago.

I replaced it with a group 31 Northstar, as I was so impressed with the 27.

I am not finding the 31 as impressive as the 27 in terms of voltage held during overnight discharges, but engine cranking gusto is scary and violently fast. It is a beast accepting 65 amps for much longer than the 27 could even when newer. I can achieve 0.5 amps at 14.7v quickly, and they will taper to 0.0x amps if left on longer, or when floated at 13.6v amps will taper to 0.0x then when cranked back upto 14.7 quickly taper back to 0.1 or less.

I could have had a Lifeline GPL-31xt delivered to my door from west covina for perhaps 20$ more than the Northstar that I had to drive 20 miles for.

But, I wanted that 1150CCA rating.

I never got anywhere near such great service from any flooded battery cycle per dollar or confidence wise, but they were all 12v marine batteries, not gc-2 or t-1275, and my charging sources and knowledge were not what they are now.

But I am never going back to flooded batteries, I don't care about the experience free opinions expressed that they can cycle deeper for longer for less$$.

I had not even looked at my AGM for 3+ years when I R&R'd it, and it is likely still years away from being placed on a recycling cart.
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Old 18-01-2020, 15:27   #79
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sternwake View Post
Just lost a long post sharing my experiences closely monitoring a 90AH g27 Northstar AGM battery. SO here's the pissed off briefer version.

...........

The Odyssey reconditioning procedure had slight but noticeable effects, but mostly on the time it took amps to taper to 0.5% of capacity. i did not really drain to 10V as prescribed, usually 10.5 or higher before instantly applying 40 or 65 amps to 14.7v.

The last year of its life amps would not taper to 0.5%, but started to stop tapering at higher and higher levels and then start rising, along with battery temperature. Voltage held during engine starting eventually fell into the 7's on a warm day with a hot engine and I relieved the battery from duty relegating it to workshop 12v source duty not more than 2 months ago.
.........
I am curious to know what reconditioning procedure you used for the Odyssey (and where you found it). I have not found one in the current Odyssey service manuals.

In the past I have on occasion used my own version of reconditioning some Odyssey batteries with mixed success. I used a constant current approach. I don't recall the exact details but it was something like deep discharge to 10V and then a constant current of 0.1C for x hours to achieve a theoretical 150% SOC. Don't quote me on the details, memory isn't always perfect!
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Old 18-01-2020, 15:36   #80
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I am curious to know what reconditioning procedure you used for the Odyssey (and where you found it). I have not found one in the current Odyssey service manuals
http://www.odysseybattery.com/docume..._Procedure.pdf

Note this is not an equalizing protocol, and will not do much for "capacity recovery" after the fact.

May help some as a regular maintenance routine, best to contact their TS to discuss your specific situation.
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Old 18-01-2020, 16:27   #81
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
http://www.odysseybattery.com/docume..._Procedure.pdf

Note this is not an equalizing protocol, and will not do much for "capacity recovery" after the fact.

May help some as a regular maintenance routine, best to contact their TS to discuss your specific situation.
And what are you basing this opinion on, your vast experience cycling TPPL AGMs?

That's right, you have NONE.

I'm surprised they have not kicked you off this forum too, for your parrotted,
yet authoritative, experience free opinions, regarding product quality and procedures/methods. I've seen plenty of members here frustrated with your participation, as if you are some all knowing authority, when a few short years ago you knew absolutely nothing, on the DC power topic.

Got to give you a thumbs up for your google-** gumption though, and you are obviously not unintelligent.

Without experience and actual data, your well read parrotted opinion is mostly worthless.

But your participation in all electrical forums online and subsequent bannings, have taught me to stop commenting entirely on things I have no experience with, and if I do not have experience with it, and do choose to comment, to make sure to point out I have no experience, but only have read it and do not know for sure whether it is true/ valid or not.

I suggest you do the same.

You will then find yourself with a LOT more free time.

Dont try and engage me/PM me. I've been done with you for a while now and skip your postings and threads where I see you are the most recent commenter and wish they would give you the axe here, too.
.........


Wotname, I do not do actual 20 hour water bath 77f constant current capacity tests, but after performing the almost equivalent of Odyssey's reconditioning procedure on my Aging Northstar-27, on subsequent recharges, the time it took amps too taper towards 0.5% or bounce off some percentage above that, were decreased, which I consider an improvement in performance. More solar wattage could go towards powering loads, rather than trying to hold absorption.

I could try Lifeline's 15.5v thing for 8 hours on it, but the battery is simply worn out. It gave me more life than expected and was impressive while it did last.
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Old 18-01-2020, 16:35   #82
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

@Sternwake no idea what you're on about, you've no idea about what I've been doing, and I've never been kicked off any forum. I have freely stopped posting in a few where I've found mod behaviour and censoring tactics unacceptable.

Feel free to specifically counter anything yo consider inaccurate or unclear in the content I post, we all should strive to learn new things every day.

Peace. . .
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Old 18-01-2020, 16:40   #83
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
@Sternwake no idea what you're on about, you've no idea about what I've been doing, and I've never been kicked off any forum. I have freely stopped posting in a few where I've found mod behaviour and censoring tactics unacceptable.

Feel free to specifically counter anything yo consider inaccurate or unclear in the content I post, we all should strive to learn new things every day.

Peace. . .
Try the search function, you should be able to find other posts that support his premise, even ones from today.
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Old 18-01-2020, 19:45   #84
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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no idea what you're on about
Not credible. It's been explained to you too many times, and by too many other posters. Whether it's recognized experts like Maine Sail, boatowners with electrical engineering degrees or other obvious expertise, or non-expert boatowners trying not to waste time on off-topic issues, money on unnecessary gadgets, or functionality (and even safety) on ill-advised decisions. Many have made specific suggestions in an effort to help make your posts more comprehensible and relevant but you seem to have ignored such advice.

Quote:
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Try the search function, you should be able to find other posts that support his premise, even ones from today.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was every day. Certainly seems to be every battery thread. I suspect many have resorted to using the 'Ignore' function, or are simply no longer participating.
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Old 19-01-2020, 11:22   #85
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio View Post
The article says, "Sulfation occurs in lead acid batteries that are left in a discharged state (with each crystal diminishing the battery’s capacity) or when batteries are chronically undercharged."

If you are taking issue with the omission of the word, "permanent" that seems nit picky.
The sentence just before this one you quoted is incorrect:

Batteries that are left in a depleted state may undergo a process known as sulfation, wherein crystals form on the battery’s plates.

This is confusing to anyone trying to understand under charging or PSOC and who are trying to get more out of their batteries and is not a detailed and correct explanation of what happens when a battery discharges.

Crystals form on the battery's plates 'as soon as' they are discharged not 'when left in a depleted state'- this is called sulfation - these crystals only harden if not fully charged to cause permanent sulfation and a reduction in the battery's capacity.

It is not 'nit picky' to distinguish the omission of the word permanent. Whilst this is fundamental to the understanding of sulfation and when it will actually cause a problem. You and another nit picky poster here should both know better. It is the less experienced posters or viewers here who need all the help they can get. What they don't want to see is nit picky arguments.

I've had extensive discussions about this with Justin Godber at Lifeline and I quote him again here;

Some people want an education but never tend to listen to what we are actually saying and sometimes our helpful advice to help people get their batteries to last longer actually turns into an argument as they tend not to believe us.
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Old 19-01-2020, 11:50   #86
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

"so don't go crazy."

Sailorboy1, what were you thinking?! Ask a question about equalizing AGMs and follow it with "so don't go crazy?" Are you crazy? You're up to 85 responses, some of them over a page in length. And you don't even have AGM batteries. Really, you've been on this forum long enough to know not to ask that. Or, did you do it just to get a rise out of battery experts on the forum? Liven up a rainy Sunday afternoon? No football game to watch?

Well, now you know the answer to your question, and maybe a lot you didn't really want to know. Good luck with your battery bank. Crack a beer and have a great afternoon.
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Old 19-01-2020, 12:18   #87
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

I just was interested in the answer without the normal spitting and hissy battle. I’m a tough learner sometimes so i keep believing such a thing is possible.

I still don't know the answer to all the questions i asked in post #1. So i guess the “experts” don't know, but are happy to to do some spitting.
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Old 20-01-2020, 04:29   #88
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailinglegend View Post
The sentence just before this one you quoted is incorrect:

Batteries that are left in a depleted state may undergo a process known as sulfation, wherein crystals form on the battery’s plates.

This is confusing to anyone trying to understand under charging or PSOC and who are trying to get more out of their batteries and is not a detailed and correct explanation of what happens when a battery discharges.

Crystals form on the battery's plates 'as soon as' they are discharged not 'when left in a depleted state'- this is called sulfation - these crystals only harden if not fully charged to cause permanent sulfation and a reduction in the battery's capacity.

It is not 'nit picky' to distinguish the omission of the word permanent. Whilst this is fundamental to the understanding of sulfation and when it will actually cause a problem. You and another nit picky poster here should both know better. It is the less experienced posters or viewers here who need all the help they can get. What they don't want to see is nit picky arguments.

I've had extensive discussions about this with Justin Godber at Lifeline and I quote him again here;

Some people want an education but never tend to listen to what we are actually saying and sometimes our helpful advice to help people get their batteries to last longer actually turns into an argument as they tend not to believe us.
Do you really believe my exclusion of the word "permanent" in the article title has confused most readers, and that after reading the article their understanding of sulfation is muddled?

I'll reiterate, in the professional side of the marine industry, the word "sulfation" refers to the detrimental aspect of that phenomenon, i.e. permanent sulfation. Strictly speaking you are correct, the type of sulfation that is not reversible is "permanent sulfation", but "sulfation" is shorthand for the phenomenon. While it may be technically correct, no one I know, perhaps outside battery engineers, uses the word "sulfation" to describe the normal discharge process wherein crystals form, and are then dissolved during charging.

The article I authored makes it clear this occurs over an extended period of time, in fact it says just that, "During extended periods of discharge the amorphous lead sulfate that makes up a battery’s plates converts to a stable crystalline form. In this case, stability is undesirable; it leads to the development of large crystals, thereby reducing the battery’s active material and diminishing its capacity".

And, Lifeline's own explanation of sulfation excludes the word "permanent", https://lifelinebatteries.com/2015/1...agm-batteries/

Lifeline's tech manual uses the word "permanent" twice, in neither case followed by "sulfation".

We aren't discussing battery performance or technology, and its application, so Justin's quote is not relevant, this is semantics.
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Old 20-01-2020, 04:48   #89
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

Sailorboy1, after you passed the first 5 or 6 posts, the very knowledgeable battery specialists stopped reading your question and proceeded to just, as you say, spit at each other, logging the exceptions to the exceptions to the answer to some other question.
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Old 20-01-2020, 05:18   #90
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Re: AGM Battery Equalization

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Sailorboy1, after you passed the first 5 or 6 posts, the very knowledgeable battery specialists stopped reading your question and proceeded to just, as you say, spit at each other, logging the exceptions to the exceptions to the answer to some other question.
Yes i realize my question is now over and the thread is mostly about spitting and sniping. But hey thats what forums are for.
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