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Old 10-04-2009, 19:53   #91
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HGL200-12?

Rick,
Is there a reason why you ended up with/choosing the HGL200-12 as opposed to the Fullriver DC series?

As I have read: Fullriver Sealed Lead Acid AGM Battery 12Volt 100Ah DC [DC 100-12A] - $463.05 : 12V Batteries : Solar power : grid connect, off grid and hot water systems, solar panels, batteries, wind turbines - Energy Matters Australia
I haven't been able to find this on Fullriver's site through.

The difference between the "HGL" and "DC" range from fullriver is as follows:
600 cycles at 75% Depth of Discharge ("DC" range) versus approx. 350 cycles at 75% Depth of Discharge ("HGL" range)
Extra Heavy Duty Grids
Higher Power Density
Deep Discharge Recovery


Just curious,
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Old 10-04-2009, 22:20   #92
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Rick-
I'm the wrong one to tell about China and satellites, because I've got a strong memory of the investigations and scandal some ten(?) years ago involving Chinese launches of US satellites, and Chinese fondling of same satellites in order to copy the US technology, some of it classified IIRC. I do think China is on the rise and that IF they ever develop business morals and ethics--and government controls--they may indeed take over the next century and righfully so. But for now? As a hairy wide-eye a half globe away, I can't tell which goods are leaders and which are outright criminal, so I have to treat them as all suspect, knowing there's a cultural issue a thousand years old here: China is the Middle Kingdom, we're the hairy barbarians, and cheating us is therefore fair and proper.

Not that the US is anywhere near pure, after all we are a bare dozen generations away from the outlaws, outcasts, and nut jobs exiled or fleeing in failure from the Old World. But all considered...if I had to buy blind and rely on the point of origin only, I'd rather buy Swiss than Chinese.

And shipping LEAD halfway around the globe? If no one is cheating, fuel is way way too cheap if that's profitable.
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:32   #93
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As usual...Rick is correct. I mis-remembered the max temp. 120 degrees is correct but I can no longer edit my post #89.
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:46   #94
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My current (has changed somewhat as time has went on) thinking has me interested in Fullriver DC215-12 (see attachment or link) for a house bank (4 of them).
http://www.fullriver.com/products/ad...e/DC215-12.pdf
Has anyone had any experience with the Fullriver DC series and more particularly the DC215-12's? I'm looking for a tall battery for the space I'm trying to fit them in.
In that regard, is there any relationship between the shape and performance. Wondering what drove the basic shape of most current batteries?

Any relevant comments would be appreciated.
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Old 11-04-2009, 17:14   #95
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Hellosailor,
I'm with you on that!

Extemporaneous,
The DC series should be good. The case sizes are not too important as long as the geometry doesn't affect the design of internal plate bussing which needs to be robust for high current charge/discharge. Observe high current starter batteries to get the idea, like 4D and 8D cases which were designed to start Cat diesels years ago. Too tall and skinny batteries would have a problem with current density being very high at the top near the collectors and low at the bottom.
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Old 11-04-2009, 21:58   #96
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"tall and skinny batteries would have a problem with"
Very interesting observation, Rick! But does a tall & skinny battery still have to have the collectors at the top? Or, could it be manufactured as a "low and wide" battery with the plate assembly simply rotated, and the collector shifting to the side as the entire assembly was rotated in the case?
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Old 12-04-2009, 04:45   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
... could it be manufactured as a "low and wide" battery with the plate assembly simply rotated, and the collector shifting to the side as the entire assembly was rotated in the case?
GNB Industrial Power (Exide), and others, , make an AGM horizontal plate battery (Absolyte XL):
Goto:
http://www.zircon.co.th/pdf/3_Absolyte.pdf

Horizontal plate geometry is claimed to offer better heat dissipation and less acid stratification (than "conventional" vertical geometries).
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:47   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
GNB Industrial Power (Exide), and others, , make an AGM horizontal plate battery (Absolyte XL):
Goto:
http://www.zircon.co.th/pdf/3_Absolyte.pdf

Horizontal plate geometry is claimed to offer better heat dissipation and less acid stratification (than "conventional" vertical geometries).
Seams counter intuitive. Heat rises and anything trapping (horizontal plates) the heat would not be good. I don't think I need to know anything about batteries to say this. I would thing the TOP plate would take and ABSOLUTE beating from the heat. Sounds like sales stuff. Perhaps there are other benefits to their design, but I can't see that as one of them.
Maybe there is just something I'm missing. Probably.
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Old 14-07-2009, 14:57   #99
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I've just spent a few amp-hours reading this and other threads here, after observing lately that my 8-year-old collection of 6 Group 31 AGMs is now dropping to a "charge me now!" state after only about 120 AH slurped. It's time, and actually rather convenient as I am also pulling out the ProSine 2.0 that came with the boat and installing an Outback FX2012, Max660 solar charger, and the FNDC system. Do doing the batteries as well makes for a clean slate, and all that...

I am pretty sure AGM is the way to go here - my boat is steel, and I'm already afloat in aqua regia. The last thing I need is H2SO4 sloshing around. I also have some unused height in the battery compartments, so maybe the Fullriver DC215-12 will fit; otherwise I'm looking at the Lifeline 8D.

Any red flags? Any suggestions re the best (cheapest) source in the Pacific Northwest?

Cheers,
Steve
Currently at anchor
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Old 14-07-2009, 17:14   #100
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I've just spent a few amp-hours reading this and other threads here, after observing lately that my 8-year-old collection of 6 Group 31 AGMs is now dropping to a "charge me now!" state after only about 120 AH slurped. It's time, and actually rather convenient as I am also pulling out the ProSine 2.0 that came with the boat and installing an Outback FX2012, Max660 solar charger, and the FNDC system. Do doing the batteries as well makes for a clean slate, and all that...

I am pretty sure AGM is the way to go here - my boat is steel, and I'm already afloat in aqua regia. The last thing I need is H2SO4 sloshing around. I also have some unused height in the battery compartments, so maybe the Fullriver DC215-12 will fit; otherwise I'm looking at the Lifeline 8D.

Any red flags? Any suggestions re the best (cheapest) source in the Pacific Northwest?

Cheers,
Steve
Currently at anchor
I can't raise any red flags, however I can't give any real good notes either. I've been too busy at work to get my system up and running.
I can say that I went with the Fullriver DC215-12's (5 of them) and I can say the DC Battery Specialists - Wholesale Batteries was a pleasure to deal with and there was NO problem shipping to Canada.
Wish I could tell you more (it would mean I have more done).

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Old 14-07-2009, 17:29   #101
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I am on my 4th year of using the West Marine AGMs and have seen no signs of deterioration. Replaced 8YO Gel cells to get faster charging capability. Spent 6 months in Mexico with them; normally take several trips a year of a few weeks duration without anything but solar to top up the batteries. Also do a few discharge/recharge cycles in the Winter so as not to just keep the batteries on float for months at a time. Almost bought the Lifelines, but a combination of some of the horror stories and a sudden $50/battery Lifeline price increase sold me on the West's on sale. Configuration is 5 Group 27s in parallel, because that is what fits in my battery area without battery boxes, just protective covers for the terminals. Also have a pair of small AGMs in parallel as backup starting batteries. Completely satisfied so far with their performance and durability-just waiting for them to die suddenly per some of the other postings, but even then would buy again.
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Old 14-07-2009, 19:25   #102
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Thanks for the comments. I have to do something very soon... I'm faffing about at anchor with rapidly dwindlng battery capacity and a stout 7.5 genset that works fine... but some massive biology in the water that makes me hesitant to use it. I'd check my raw-water strainer, but the cap is seized... so I'm in a loop until I can get back to the home dock and have shore power available to take on the power-refit project. The marina is closed to us riffraff because it's race week and all the go-fast toys have priority.

*sigh* Think I'll just go sail the dinghy!

I'll let you know what I decide to do re the batteries... and thanks for the link, Extemp. I just spent the day reverse-engineering the remarkably arcane power system, trying to find the "edges" so I can retrofit without incident.

NOTE TO SELF: never again buy a boat without up-to-date wiring diagrams... electronics is native territory, but crawling around chasing cables is physically nightmarish.

Steve
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Old 14-07-2009, 22:12   #103
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I've heard only good about Fullriver...but can't help wondering if the economics of shipping one of the heaviest possible metals from China, coupled with the usual Chinese ethical standards, isn't a landmine.

I'd be happier to see five years of rave reviews in publications from 100 owners who have put them through the mill.

But, that's just the opinion of one card-carrying skeptic and honorary Missourian.
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Old 14-07-2009, 22:21   #104
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Hellosailor... I hear ya, and agree. Scales (literally) will tip in most any other direction as long as it's technically sound. I was hoping to fit four 8D packages in, but no luck... currently two bays, each with four Group 31 AGM. Lots of unused headroom.

I just discovered that the Prosine, somewhere along the way, forgot its setup and was driving these as "Generic Gel of 200 AH" rather than "Generic AGM of 640 AH." No idea what the battery-life implications of that have been, but I'm doing a long generator run to float it to the finish line...

Steve
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Old 17-07-2009, 20:19   #105
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Hi...

Well, I did it. 8 new Fullriver Group 31 batteries... 560 pounds transferred off the beach by dinghy today, with an equivalent mass of old ones removed. I'm exhausted.

I discovered something else disturbing, in addition to the Prosine "generic gel" setpoint (since changed to "generic AGM" since the manual was printed before Fullriver came on the scene. First question: is that OK?

But a bigger issue... some of the old ones (West Marine AGM) are bulged at the ends, which says "overcharging" to me... sometime in the past 8 years, since that's the age of the batteries. But what worries me is the ancient original-equipment alternator (starts with L - forgot the name). Hopefully, there's a regulator down there somewhere, but I have no documentation on it. Clearly, it would need setpoints for AGM, not flood.

I'm an electronics geek, but not an engine guy; the interface is a mystery zone. Other than watching for excessive battery voltage while motoring, is there anything I can to to make sure that this massive investment in batteries will return dividends for a good long time?

At the electronics end, I'll be swapping out the Prosine for the new Outback FX2012, but engine-charging is a big unknown.

Cheers and thanks for any comments,
Steve

PS - I was trying to buy Lifeline, but they were not only much more expensive but the local dealer (who handles both brands) said there have been some quality control issues and returns lately. The combination tipped the scales, since I was already in sticker shock. (I paid $255 each.)
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