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Old 18-12-2014, 22:42   #1
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Location: Gladstone MO/ Marina Del Rey, CA
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Adding a Battery

Hi All,

I would like to add a 2nd battery to my sailboat. One for the outboard engine and one for everything else. I designed a schematic (attached) of how I wanted to wire it. Am concerned about where I want to put an analog ammeter that charging current would reverse peg it. If so, would changing the + battery connection for the hybrid controller to connect to top of House circuit breaker (see schematic) fix that? Also wondering about the reliability of using a vsr for switching. Any opinion/ critique is appreciated. Thanks.

Dan

Parts planning to buy:

VSR BEP 710 140A VSR 140 Amp | eBay

analog ammeter Analog Amp Meter 30A - e Marine Systems

analog voltmeter Amazon.com : Sea Dog 423112 Battery Monitor W/Expanded Made by Sea Dog : Boating Equipment : Sports & Outdoors

AC 2 source breaker box Blue Sea 8467 AC 2 Sources + 4 Positions

Hybrid package 12V Hybrid Kit Silent wind 400W/Kyocera Solar Panel 280W - e Marine Systems

inverter ? 2kw?

house battery ?
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Old 19-12-2014, 10:01   #2
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Re: Adding a Battery

Put the solar/ wind direct to house battery with own fuse

Forget the analog gauge. Get a battery monitor on the house bank. (Like a victron 700)

Your wiring will work for a 100w inverter...

A 2000w inverter takes over 200amps. Requires probably atleast 4 batteries. A d gets wired with. 2/0 wire straight to battery.

You need switches on the house and engine battery. And inverter if run to battery.
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Old 19-12-2014, 10:16   #3
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Re: Adding a Battery

I would ask why you want a dedicated starter battery for an outboard?

Even on diesel inboards the trend is going more to a large primary bank with a small reserve bank. It doesn't take much power to start a small marine engine. I would think that your outboard would have a pull start backup. If so, I would simply add the second battery to my house bank and eliminate a lot of the complexity you are putting into the system. That would mean buying two batteries because you would want the batteries to be the same age, size and wear. So I would put 2 6 volt golf cart batteries together for a 12volt bank around 230 Ah.

On another note, it doesn't appear that you have any fuses at the batteries. You should have some fuses there, especially if you are going to start a motor with them. Fuses are based on the size of the wire, if they are bundled and the heat the wires will be exposed to (usually based on the wires being in the engine room but not an issue on your boat).

If you really want to go down the two bank path, I would recommend you read this thread. There is a not more to consider than what you have in your plan. Switches were mentioned above. You also have your alternator wired directly to the battery, you would want some kind of a service disconnect. Then there is the practical side of having to rerun that wire every time you go to take off the outboard for service. There are ways to make that whole process easier. If you are determined to go this way I could offer some more suggestions.

Good luck and fair winds,

Jesse
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Old 19-12-2014, 16:49   #4
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Re: Adding a Battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
Put the solar/ wind direct to house battery with own fuse

Forget the analog gauge. Get a battery monitor on the house bank. (Like a victron 700)

Your wiring will work for a 100w inverter...

A 2000w inverter takes over 200amps. Requires probably atleast 4 batteries. A d gets wired with. 2/0 wire straight to battery.

You need switches on the house and engine battery. And inverter if run to battery.
Hi smac999,

Thanks for your reply. The victron 700 looks nice. Do you know if there is a way to shut it off or does it continuously display?

You sure about about the inverters? Here are the specs of a 2500 W cobra....
https://www.cobra.com/sites/default/...I2575_SPEC.pdf
I could be wrong but it looks like it could run off 1 battery.

Also I don't understand why I need switches, I thought the vsr was suppose to take care of the switching? Thanks again,

Dan
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Old 19-12-2014, 17:08   #5
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Re: Adding a Battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
I would ask why you want a dedicated starter battery for an outboard?

Even on diesel inboards the trend is going more to a large primary bank with a small reserve bank. It doesn't take much power to start a small marine engine. I would think that your outboard would have a pull start backup. If so, I would simply add the second battery to my house bank and eliminate a lot of the complexity you are putting into the system. That would mean buying two batteries because you would want the batteries to be the same age, size and wear. So I would put 2 6 volt golf cart batteries together for a 12volt bank around 230 Ah.

On another note, it doesn't appear that you have any fuses at the batteries. You should have some fuses there, especially if you are going to start a motor with them. Fuses are based on the size of the wire, if they are bundled and the heat the wires will be exposed to (usually based on the wires being in the engine room but not an issue on your boat).

If you really want to go down the two bank path, I would recommend you read this thread. There is a not more to consider than what you have in your plan. Switches were mentioned above. You also have your alternator wired directly to the battery, you would want some kind of a service disconnect. Then there is the practical side of having to rerun that wire every time you go to take off the outboard for service. There are ways to make that whole process easier. If you are determined to go this way I could offer some more suggestions.

Good luck and fair winds,

Jesse
Hi Jesse,

Thanks for the reply. I want a dedicated starter battery so that I can run my lights or whatever without having to worry about draining my starter battery.

Presently my boat just has 1 battery and there is no main switch or service disconnect. I assumed this was the norm. I would prefer to keep as simple as possible and I still don't see the purpose of those switches beside something extra to make sure I do. Again I am probably wrong but would like to know why? I am definitely open to any suggestions and they are appreciated. Thanks again,

Dan
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Old 19-12-2014, 19:03   #6
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Re: Adding a Battery

I am going to give you the same advice that Maine Sail gave me when I was thinking about a dedicated started battery. I think you are overthinking the need for a dedicated started battery and that a large primary bank with a smaller reserve bank would be a more versatile setup. You could set this up with a simple 1/2/Both/Off switch.

I don't know anything about the VSR relay you linked to. I used a Blue Sea Systems ACR. I am really happy with the performance of this product.

To figure out the size of the bank you would need to power consumption workup. Then you can think about how long you would want to be able to go assuming cloudy weather and no wind (i.e. no power generation). On the wind power, many of the cruisers I have talked to ended up ditching the them. Good concept but they are noisey and don't make as much power as they are an inconvenience. Based on all of the reviews I have gotten either from the internet or cruisers, I am going with solar only.

Here are some links to help you figure out what you want to do.

1) Look into 6 volt golf cart batteries or Group 31 12 volt. Thankfully, Maine Sail has already done a lot of the homework and identified a quality, affordable brand. The Duracell ECG2 from Sam's Club. See below for sizes.

2) While AGM or gel may be appealing, stick with the flooded. You need to do a lot more work to go with AGM or gel that is likely not worth it for you.

3) Spend some time reading about the 1/2/both/off switch and how to properly setup your new system.

4) I added a positive distribution buss, wired my alternator directly to this buss, added an ACR and a battery monitor.

5) Do a power consumption workup to help you size your batteries and solar panels appropriately. I have attached mine but this is based on being full-time liveaboards and cruisers. Your use will likely be different and change some of these aspects.

6) Once you do the power consumption workup you can size your bank(s). I helped a friend install two of the ECG2s as a primary bank with a group 27 as the reserve bank on his Catalina 30. This gave him a primary bank of 230 Ah and he was fine using his boat for weekend and vacation cruises with this setup. No need to go too big if you are not going to use it. I went with 4 of the ECG2 for a primary bank of 460 Ah and a Group 24 reserve. It's a tight fit and I had to make some compromises to get them in. You want to pay attention to orientation when you install the batteries.

7) When you go to buy the components, don't cheap out. I used some lower end components and have either replaced them or are planning to. Go with something like Blue Sea Systems or another well respected marine grade company. Saving a few bucks on a cheaper ANL fuse is not worth it. I did it and had an 80 amp ANL fuse go with no sign of blowing. It cost me a weather window to leave a fogged in port in Maine while I diagnosed the problem. Could have been a lot worse. I now only buy Blue Sea Systems fuses (but this might have to change, see the 800 lb gorilla post from MS).

8) Consider adding a battery watering system. I went with the Flow-Rite system and love having it. At the very least consider a battery filler. And get a battery hydrometer or refractometer while you are at it. I have both. And when you purchase distilled water, go with Poland Springs. As usual, Maine Sail has done the legwork for you.

9) Go with good quality battery boxes and remove the fiberglass tray that the factory installed. On mine they screwed through the bottom and it wasn't watertight any more. The Dyno boxes sold here are great. Also, pay attention to the hold down system in the orientation article above.

10) Solar is something I am still working on but will add this year. A good place to start is this article from Compass Marine Services (aka Maine Sail's business page). It is a great primary on how to size and on how to install.

11) As to the type of panels, that will depend on a lot. I am currently leaning towards Renogy bendable solar panels installed on the bimini and some other places. But this goes against all of Maine Sail's advice. It's a cost thing for me at the moment. But the reasons I have not made this purchase is because Maine Sail does have really compelling reasons why he recommends Solbians for this type of panel over the other brands that are available. It's a very tough choice. Quality vs. cruising kitty. I will definately go with the flexible panels. Just not sure on the brand yet.

Hope this was helpful.

Good luck and fair winds,

Jesse
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File Type: pdf Power Consumption worksheet 2.pdf (90.9 KB, 37 views)
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Old 28-12-2014, 06:51   #7
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Re: Adding a Battery

Dan,
I see you are sailing a Bristol 24. Is that the boat you are planning on upgrading? Meaningn disrespect to you or any of the other responses, think you are putting the cart before the horse. First take a good look at you electric useage. If this is the B 24, consider converting to LED lights, and otherwise lowering your electric consumption. What equipment do you have on board? Refrigerator, and air conditioning are the big power hogs. What HP is the outboard? Most 9.9 OB have a 10 amp or so alternator. It will take a long time to recharge a large battery bank at 10A. You are designing an eletric system for a largish liveaboard to install in what appears to be a smallish weekender. I would think a B24 with solid state electronics and LED lamps would live nicely on a 250 AH house bank and a small reserve starter battery. The purpose of all the fancy equipment is to maximize battery life, and ultimatly lower battery cost. If the victron monitor costs as much as the battery bank, your economic payback time will be long indeed, unless it will increase battery life by 100% or so, which it will not. Costco has decent 85AH "marine" batteries for about $75.00, buy two, a battery switch, a couple of solar panels and a good bottle of rum. Go sailing, drink rum, under the starlight in the cockpit. Unless the original question was about that Hinckley 54 you haven't mentioned, in which case, Never mind!
Lou
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Old 28-12-2014, 07:27   #8
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Re: Adding a Battery

Dan,

Ya got lots of good advice, and lotsa readin' ta do!

Looks like your commute to MdR is about the same as mine...
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Old 09-01-2015, 08:28   #9
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Re: Adding a Battery

Sorry for the bad editing. I meant NO disrespect, which came out garbled.
Lou
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Old 10-01-2015, 02:07   #10
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Re: Adding a Battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourner77 View Post
Hi smac999,

Thanks for your reply. The victron 700 looks nice. Do you know if there is a way to shut it off or does it continuously display?

You sure about about the inverters? Here are the specs of a 2500 W cobra....
https://www.cobra.com/sites/default/...I2575_SPEC.pdf
I could be wrong but it looks like it could run off 1 battery.

Also I don't understand why I need switches, I thought the vsr was suppose to take care of the switching? Thanks again,

Dan
Dan

The Victron display goes into a sleep mode until a button is pressed.

The 2500 watt inverter will consume approx 250 amps for full output. A single battery will drop in voltage enough that the inverter will shut off if anywhere close to full output is asked of it. What are you going to be using the inverter for? Unless a microwave or other large AC consumer I would suggest a much smaller inverter. The minimum bank I would use for a 2500 watt inverter is 4 golf cart batteries (440+ AH) and preferably 6 golf carts.

A VSR is designed to control charging automatically. Your charge sources typically all go to the house bank and the VSR will parallel the start battery when it sees a charging voltage, opening as the voltage drops. You still need manual battery switching to isolate each bank.
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