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Old 12-03-2011, 15:36   #1
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AC / DC Line Diagram ( Partial, Mostly )

Well it's been in my head for sometime now, but as I'm finally going to be starting (soon ), I thought it would be a good idea to put pen to paper (so to speak).
That said, I'm hoping that a few of you would comment/rip it apart (at least what is laid out).
It's obviously important that I get this right!

If you would........

Thanks and Best Regards,
Extemp.
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Old 12-03-2011, 15:39   #2
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

Boy, you don't want much do you, LOL.

Question: is this an "as is" diagram or a proposed wiring diagram?

Rich

Edit: Possibly I'm just not reading your schematic right. Where is the selector switch from your two battery banks to the inverter?? Mine is set up so I can select which bank goes there.
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Old 12-03-2011, 15:41   #3
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

looks OK so far, It might be better drawn without the common negative lines

Dave
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Old 12-03-2011, 15:46   #4
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabo_sailor View Post
Boy, you don't want much do you, LOL.

Question: is this an "as is" diagram or a proposed wiring diagram?

Rich
No it is proposed not an as-built.

"don't want much" I know what you mean, I just put it together and my poor little brain hurts.

I would appreciate any valuable criticism.
I'm also attaching the same diagram again, but I think?? much clearer.

Cheers,
Extemp.
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Old 12-03-2011, 15:50   #5
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

Extemp,

Can you tell me what the color coding on the diagram signifies? Gold, green, and red? And as a ps, my little brain is also hurting!! At least you didn't throw in wind generators and solar panels, or did I miss that too?

Rich
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Old 12-03-2011, 16:06   #6
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabo_sailor View Post
Extemp,

Can you tell me what the color coding on the diagram signifies? Gold, green, and red? And as a ps, my little brain is also hurting!! At least you didn't throw in wind generators and solar panels, or did I miss that too?

Rich
The yellow is DC negative. The green is PE (potential earth) and the red is DC positive.

My hope is that with this as a basis, the rest will be simple... Run what ever electrical producing device through whatever controller it likes and then hook it to the main DC Bus??
But yes, another day ;-).

Thanks,
Extemp.
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Old 12-03-2011, 16:21   #7
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

Extemp,

I don't think your schematic is optimal. I have a hard time decoding it also... what is "RCBO" ?

Anyway, looking at the batteries... from your house bank to main positive busbar... just put a single on/off switch there (the heavy duty gray Blue Sea version)

Then the starter batteries: install 2x On/Off switch, label one "Start" and the Other "House". Connect the "Start" switch to the starter batteries and the "House" switch to the main pos. busbar. On the secondary side, connect both "Start" and "House" switches together and wire this to the starters from engines & gensets. If you have multiple starter batteries: wire them parallel using 1/2/both/off switch so you can quickly isolate in case one goes bad.

On the AC side: what is the source selector between shore power connector and isolation transformer? I only have a dual-pole breaker there. Also: are you really really sure you don't want 240V ? Now is the time to rethink this as it'll cost extra later.

What kind of inverter/charger do you have? I get the idea it's one without transfer switches?

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 12-03-2011, 17:29   #8
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

I would suggest a return line directly from your alternator instead of through your engine block.
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Old 12-03-2011, 17:52   #9
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Extemp,

I don't think your schematic is optimal. I have a hard time decoding it also... what is "RCBO" ?
Oops, that's not good, if it's not understandable.
RCBO is a Residual Current Circuit Breaker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Extemp,
Anyway, looking at the batteries... from your house bank to main positive busbar... just put a single on/off switch there (the heavy duty gray Blue Sea version)
I will eventually go through my 350 Amp rated switches and so I put a 350 Amp Class T fuse as close to the Battery bank a possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Extemp,
Then the starter batteries: install 2x On/Off switch, label one "Start" and the Other "House". Connect the "Start" switch to the starter batteries and the "House" switch to the main pos. busbar. On the secondary side, connect both "Start" and "House" switches together and wire this to the starters from engines & gensets. If you have multiple starter batteries: wire them parallel using 1/2/both/off switch so you can quickly isolate in case one goes bad.
The switches are set up so that I could take either bank off line should one go bad a use the other Without the bad one dragging down the remaining good one. The starter battery is 215 Amp/hr and so if the house batteries went bad, it should be able to run the instrument for a while. The house bank is in the bilge so I want to be able to totally remove it from the system if necessary.
Do you know how this can be done more simply?


Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Extemp,

On the AC side: what is the source selector between shore power connector and isolation transformer? I only have a dual-pole breaker there. Also: are you really really sure you don't want 240V ? Now is the time to rethink this as it'll cost extra later.
What kind of inverter/charger do you have? I get the idea it's one without transfer switches?
The source selector switch is a AC Toggle Source Selector AC Toggle Source Selector (European) - PN 8132 - Blue Sea Systems meant to conveniently switch between European power and North American power. I'm going to put a 120 Volt 30 Amp breaker in on of the slots. It is mostly a Circuit breaker. I could use it for a Gen Set although at this point, I'm not planning on having one. I think I'll be happy with 120 Volt. My Inverter/Charger is switchable. It's a Magnum Energy MS2000. My Isolation transformer is a Victron 3600 Watt.
Let me know about the switches if you would.


Thanks,
Extemp.
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Old 12-03-2011, 18:11   #10
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
I would suggest a return line directly from your alternator instead of through your engine block.
Can I ask why.
I thought?? that you where ONLY supposed to have ONE tie between your boats Negative and Potential Ground (PE).
I certainly could be missing something.

Let me know please.

Thanks,
Extemp.
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Old 12-03-2011, 18:53   #11
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Re: AC / DC Line Diagram ( Partial Mostly )

I corrected the fact that I did not have the DC Negative from my Engine start battery running back to the Main DC Grounding Bus.


Cheers,
Extemp.
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Old 12-03-2011, 20:25   #12
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Extemporaneous View Post
RCBO is a Residual Current Circuit Breaker.
Okay... You only need 1 of those: delete the one on the output of the isolation transformer. The wiring between isolation transformer and inverter/charger must be rated for 16A continuous.

Quote:
I will eventually go through my 350 Amp rated switches and so I put a 350 Amp Class T fuse as close to the Battery bank a possible.
House bank, it's bus bar and class-T fuse is all good. What I mean is that between the fuse and the main bus bars, all you should have there is a single on/off switch.

Quote:
The switches are set up so that I could take either bank off line should one go bad a use the other Without the bad one dragging down the remaining good one.
Ah.. you mean you have 2 strings of batteries as your house bank?! Ye you can use 2 switches in that case. I have three strings so could have used 3 switches. But to handle a problem, you're gonna switch both strings off in order to stabilize the situation and find the bad battery. With the bus bars that connect the strings in parallel, it's easy to just take a cable off.

Quote:
The starter battery is 215 Amp/hr and so if the house batteries went bad, it should be able to run the instrument for a while. The house bank is in the bilge so I want to be able to totally remove it from the system if necessary.
Sure, wouldn't want to have it any other way.

Quote:
Do you know how this can be done more simply?
Yes, like I tried to explain :-) 3 switches total: one for house bank on/off and two for selecting starting power (both simple on/off models). When those last two are both switched to "on" you have put the banks parallel if you ever want to do that.

Quote:
The source selector switch is a AC Toggle Source Selector AC Toggle Source Selector (European) - PN 8132 - Blue Sea Systems meant to conveniently switch between European power and North American power.
I think you need more for that... check the jumpers inside the isolation transformer. I decided to do this manually... keep it simple.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 12-03-2011, 21:35   #13
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Re: AC/DC Line Diagram (partial mostly)

Quote: Originally Posted by Extemporaneous
RCBO is a Residual Current Circuit Breaker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Okay... You only need 1 of those: delete the one on the output of the isolation transformer. The wiring between isolation transformer and inverter/charger must be rated for 16A continuous.
I don't think so.... I would not have GFI protection for the "Main Elect. Panel" if I remove the first RCBO. Note that not all of my AC runs through the inverter.

Quote: Originally Posted by Extemporaneous
I will eventually go through my 350 Amp rated switches and so I put a 350 Amp Class T fuse as close to the Battery bank a possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
House bank, it's bus bar and class-T fuse is all good. What I mean is that between the fuse and the main bus bars, all you should have there is a single on/off switch.
Nick.
Nick, if I take out the 3 and replace it with 1, how do I accommodate the isolation capabilities I want? After all, 1 of the 3 switches that I have does (and only does) turn off/isolate the main house bank of batteries just like your suggesting!

Quote: Originally Posted by Extemporaneous
The switches are set up so that I could take either bank off line should one go bad a use the other Without the bad one dragging down the remaining good one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Ah.. you mean you have 2 strings of batteries as your house bank?! Ye you can use 2 switches in that case. I have three strings so could have used 3 switches. But to handle a problem, you're gonna switch both strings off in order to stabilize the situation and find the bad battery. With the bus bars that connect the strings in parallel, it's easy to just take a cable off.
Nick.
I have 2 battery banks. The House Bank having 4 AGM batteries of 215 Amp hours each, and the Engine starting bank which only has 1 battery in it. That being an AGM battery with a capacity of 215 Amp hours.

And yes, I'm going to (or might) "switch both strings off", but the "strings" will be the House Bank and the Engine Starting Bank (consisting of one battery). I'll need 2 switches for that. Add one more (like I have) and I can do everything I want (I think!).

Quote: Originally Posted by Extemporaneous
The starter battery is 215 Amp/hr and so if the house batteries went bad, it should be able to run the instrument for a while. The house bank is in the bilge so I want to be able to totally remove it from the system if necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Sure, wouldn't want to have it any other way.
Nick.
ONE for me!

Quote: Originally Posted by Extemporaneous
Do you know how this can be done more simply?
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Yes, like I tried to explain :-) 3 switches total: one for house bank on/off and two for selecting starting power (both simple on/off models). When those last two are both switched to "on" you have put the banks parallel if you ever want to do that.
Nick.
This is what is drawn and what I have!
That said, I think that the red X's on the drawing (at the bottom showing the backside of 3 switches) may have confused my drawing. The X's are over whited out lines that were on an original Blue Sea drawing that I modified!

Quote: Originally Posted by Extemporaneous
The source selector switch is a AC Toggle Source Selector AC Toggle Source Selector (European) - PN 8132 - Blue Sea Systems meant to conveniently switch between European power and North American power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
I think you need more for that... check the jumpers inside the isolation transformer. I decided to do this manually... keep it simple.
cheers,
Nick.
I agree, but I did need a breaker anyway.

I'd feel a whole lot better if I could communicate Better ;-)
I'll have to work on it!

Cheers & Thanks,
Extemp.
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Old 13-03-2011, 04:00   #14
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Wow , confusion

OP, the diagram will work.

You do need two RCBOs as correctly stated as you have two separated AC panels in that design.

The protective earth connection( green) is not much use but it's not doing any harm it's not actually capable of anything since you have an isolation trans former. It should really be coloured yellow since it's just a DC ground.

With protection from the transformer and the RCBOs I would not advise any connection between DC negative and protective earth.

The other thing is the electrical system assumes that the inverter AC output doesn't have anything in common with the shorepower you could need common power feeds to devices that you want to run either from the inverter or shorepower. That's requires a different configuration

The battery switches are fine but since the whole diagram is non standard drawings it's all a bit confusing.

Dave
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Old 13-03-2011, 05:33   #15
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Re: AC / DC Line Diagram ( Partial, Mostly )

Extemp, why do you need a 215 amp starting battery to start a 46 hp engine?

Viv's little Peugeot has a 50 hp diesel and a battery I can pick up with one hand. With 215 amps you could start an 18 wheeler.

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