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Old 19-05-2018, 17:42   #1
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ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

I think that this is definitive....

E-8.17.4 Power wiring for receptacles shall be connected so that
the grounded (white) conductor attaches to the terminal identified
by the word "white" or a light color (normally white or silver).
The ungrounded conductor(s) shall be attached to the terminal(s)
identified by a dark color (normally brass or copper) and,
optionally, the letters X, Y, and Z or L1, L2, and L3.
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Old 19-05-2018, 18:07   #2
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

The operative word is "grounded conductor". This is also refered to as the neutral conductor by us common folks. The ground conductor (note the slight difference in terminology) is green or bare.
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Old 19-05-2018, 19:09   #3
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
I think that this is definitive....

E-8.17.4 Power wiring for receptacles shall be connected so that
the grounded (white) conductor attaches to the terminal identified
by the word "white" or a light color (normally white or silver).
The ungrounded conductor(s) shall be attached to the terminal(s)
identified by a dark color (normally brass or copper) and,
optionally, the letters X, Y, and Z or L1, L2, and L3.
Too bad not all "ABYC Certified Technicians" have read this!
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Old 19-05-2018, 19:24   #4
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankly View Post
The operative word is "grounded conductor". This is also refered to as the neutral conductor by us common folks. The ground conductor (note the slight difference in terminology) is green or bare.
I think that the take away is that ungrounded conductors would be labeled as X, Y, and Z or L1, L2, and L3. And the converse - grounded conductors may not be labeled X, Y, and Z or L1, L2, and L3.

Thinking back to my power grid days (which explains the ABYC terminology change) any conductor that is not grounded is hot. Thus the change to ungrounded, grounded, grounding.

In a substation or switching yard any ungrounded conductor or metal frame for that matter would have induced currents and thus be hot. If you ground them with your body you are dead.
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Old 20-05-2018, 09:19   #5
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

Agree with #1, #2 and #4. DotDon: In fact this is hammered into the students in a variety of ways during the four day class prior to taking the exam which has at least five questions related to this.

And, BTW, E-8 was superseded by E-11 about seven years ago!
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Old 20-05-2018, 09:44   #6
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

Current code, 11.13.3.3, reads essentially the same - white conductor to silver terminal, etc.


I am not sure that the terminology ("grounded conductor") is not lost on the casual reader.
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Old 20-05-2018, 10:40   #7
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

Quote:
Originally Posted by redsky49 View Post
Current code, 11.13.3.3, reads essentially the same - white conductor to silver terminal, etc.


I am not sure that the terminology ("grounded conductor") is not lost on the casual reader.

Concur, that is why in my area names are L1, L2, L3 (Live/Line) and N (Neutral) and PE (Protective Earth). Terms 'ground' and 'grounded' are too easy to mix and therefore not the best choice imo.


@evm1024

in the old days it used to be R, S and T here (not X,Y,Z) but was changed to L1..L3 quite a while back.
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Old 20-05-2018, 10:54   #8
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

What is your question?...

L2 is hot. Would be red in 240v
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Old 20-05-2018, 13:04   #9
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

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Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
What is your question?...

L2 is hot. Would be red in 240v
No question, just a follow on to a closed thread.

Does portable generator plug into shore power outlet.
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Old 20-05-2018, 13:32   #10
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

E-11 is the results of combining E-8 and E-9.

I had not come across the older E-8 ABYC specification before the other thread was closed.

In that thread an ABYC certified marine tech insisted that it was perfectly reasonable practice to label the neutral conductor (grounded conductor) L2.
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Old 20-05-2018, 18:30   #11
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

> In that thread **someone claiming to be** an ABYC certified marine tech insisted. . .

FTFY
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Old 21-05-2018, 13:29   #12
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
> In that thread **someone claiming to be** an ABYC certified marine tech insisted. . .

FTFY
Correction, someone who “is” ABYC Certified asserted that the reference to the 2 line voltage connectors to a 120 Vac GFCI, as “L1 (hot or black) and “L2 (neutral, white) is valid.

If you have any evidence that the someone you are referring to is not ABYC certified, please furnish it or stand corrected.

That “someone” does have considerable background in residential, commercial, industrial, and marine wiring.

That someone indicated that the two line voltage conductors connected to a 120 Vac GFCI May be referred to as “L1 (hot, black) and L2 (neutral, white).

They can.

Another referred to this as incorrect,and others jumped
on the band wagon of rude postings until a moderator deleted some of the validation and then finally shut down the thread.

I suspect this thread and in particular this post is just a troll.

I provided an irrefutable reference to the proper use of “L1, L2,G”. If anyone wishes to see more, just Google the term.

You may even find a reference to terminal markings “L/L1, N/L2, G.

In conclusion, just because some may not have the same background and experience as I, does not make the reference to these terminals in this way, incorrect or invalid, perhaps just different than you are used to.

I suspect most with a background in 120 Vac motor control wiring, and HVAC/R wiring, would not even bat an eye at the “L1,L2,G” terminology.

What’s more, and as I indicated, the installer may label wires that they reference to a wiring diagram however they choose, as long as it is clear which is the 120 Vac grounded, ungrounded, and grounding conductor.

The terminology I used should be absolutely clear to anyone who has any business touching an electrical system. To anyone that claims confusion by it, well, perhaps they don’t.
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Old 21-05-2018, 16:02   #13
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

Actually this thread is about ABYC E-8.17.4 and the labeling of the neutral conductor L2.

This thread is not about any specific individual. It is a follow on to the other thread that got closed with this stated reason:

Too many people have neglected the "be respectful and be nice" parts of the community rules. Thread closed.

That you self-identified as the Tech is your call.
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Old 21-05-2018, 16:49   #14
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod View Post
Correction, someone who “is” ABYC Certified asserted that the reference to the 2 line voltage connectors to a 120 Vac GFCI, as “L1 (hot or black) and “L2 (neutral, white) is valid.
Yes you did and your use of L2 as the name of a grounded conductor was objected to. The person who objected to your use of L2 for a grounded (neutral) conductor did so in the same form that you did "incorrect". I suspect that set you off.

Quote:
If you have any evidence that the someone you are referring to is not ABYC certified, please furnish it or stand corrected.
No one said that you were not certified. Clearly your are certified. A simple google search brings up your ABYC member info including certifications:

https://abyc.site-ym.com/members/?id=37969973

Certified Marine Systems Technician, Marine Systems Exam

I suspect that you missed the point that was made.

Quote:
That “someone” does have considerable background in residential, commercial, industrial, and marine wiring.

That someone indicated that the two line voltage conductors connected to a 120 Vac GFCI May be referred to as “L1 (hot, black) and L2 (neutral, white).

They can.
Of course you can do anything you want on your boat. But we were not talking about your boat.

What we are talking about is that because the most common use of L2 on boats is to indicate the second hot conductor in split phase or dual AC powered boats it would be confusing to call a neutral conductor L2.

Quote:
Another referred to this as incorrect,and others jumped
on the band wagon of rude postings until a moderator deleted some of the validation and then finally shut down the thread.

I suspect this thread and in particular this post is just a troll.
I keep those posts and that is not what happened. and , again this thread is not a troll it is a discussion of the meaning of ABYC E-8.17.4. Specifically where it states that L2 is an ungrounded conductor (and not a grounded conductor).

Quote:
I provided an irrefutable reference to the proper use of “L1, L2,G”. If anyone wishes to see more, just Google the term.

You may even find a reference to terminal markings “L/L1, N/L2, G.
The only references you gave specifically reference an electrical code which requires that the line side of an industrial motor starting device have it connectors labeled L1, L2, L3, L4. And that the output connectors be labeled T1, T2, T3, T4.

None of that spec applies to the labeling of the conductors that are connected to the line side or motor side of the starting device.

In other words your irrefutable reference has nothing to do with your assertion that the neutral may be labeled L2 and thus proves nothing.

Further, if you were to actually do the google searches that you suggest you will quickly see that in each if not all of the hits L2 is used as the second hot conductor in split phase or 3 phase power. And not one is used to label the neutral conductor.

In addition, I label conductors in by boat at both ends. Thus should I label the neutral L2 (which I would not) then in the AC distribution panel there would be a number of L2's connecting to the neutral bus. Let's talk confusing.

Quote:
In conclusion, just because some may not have the same background and experience as I, does not make the reference to these terminals in this way, incorrect or invalid, perhaps just different than you are used to.

I suspect most with a background in 120 Vac motor control wiring, and HVAC/R wiring, would not even bat an eye at the “L1,L2,G” terminology.
We are not talking about of wiring up 120 Vac motor controls, or HVAC/R wiring. We are talking about ABYC E-8.17.4 specifically and in a more general sense the likely violation of ABYC rules by using the label L2 on the neutral conductor feeding the line side of a GFCI.

Quote:
What’s more, and as I indicated, the installer may label wires that they reference to a wiring diagram however they choose, as long as it is clear which is the 120 Vac grounded, ungrounded, and grounding conductor.
Quote:
The terminology I used should be absolutely clear to anyone who has any business touching an electrical system. To anyone that claims confusion by it, well, perhaps they don’t.
The first part I can agree with:

The terminology I used should be absolutely clear

The rest ignores that boats change hands....

But let's get back to the reason for this thread.

I'll put it in question form.

Do ABYC specs prohibit labeling a neutral conductor L2? Especially in an ungrounded, grounded, grounding feed to a GFCI.

And a follow on question would be - If ABYC specs allow such a label would the use of L2 on the neutral conductor be sufficiently confusing so as to make it a bad idea.

Keep is civil folks....
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Old 21-05-2018, 23:47   #15
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Re: ABYC E-8.17.4 (L2 conductor label)

Quote:
Originally Posted by evm1024 View Post
And a follow on question would be - If ABYC specs allow such a label would the use of L2 on the neutral conductor be sufficiently confusing so as to make it a bad idea.

One can likely do as they please on their boat, including naming wires any way they like (how about 'boogaboo' and 'bleh'?), however, to the next person working on such install (where L2 was used instead of N), it would be akin to a red light saying 'walk' and green saying 'don't walk'. I guess the take away lesson is to be vigilant when working on unknown installs, which is sop anyway.
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