A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

[T1 Terry]

OK, then if your total load is 120Ah between recharges, why not compare the cost to 120Ah of lithium batteries? Then add in the difference recharging costs, unless this is only via plugging in to the marina, then the costs are fixed no matter how much you use.... aren't they?
If you calculated the number of actual 120Ah dischargers you did before the Trojans required replacement, what would that number be? From what I can make out it appears to be 200 cycles or less, is that correct?

I'm still not sure about the sadistic thing, a masochist perhaps?

T1 Terry

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

OK, then if your total load is 120Ah between recharges, why not compare the cost to 120Ah of lithium batteries? Then add in the difference recharging costs, unless this is only via plugging in to the marina, then the costs are fixed no matter how much you use.... aren't they?
If you calculated the number of actual 120Ah dischargers you did before the Trojans required replacement, what would that number be? From what I can make out it appears to be 200 cycles or less, is that correct?

I'm still not sure about the sadistic thing, a masochist perhaps?

T1 Terry

I didn't just fall off the turnip truck!

Hi All,

Just joined, I'm a stink pot as some of you may call me.

But we all have the same needs Sail or Power...especially if you spend anytime on anchor.

My house bank is 720 amhr at 12 volts, we use on average about 110 amphrs per 24 hr when on anchorage.

I needed a good charge source on anchor, and charging through a AC gen to shore charger is a very inefficient way, both in fuel costs, and time listening to a generator.

I searched high and low for a good dc generator, and wasn't happy with anything the market had to offer..either price point, or quality, or to small.

So I went about studying the issues and decided I could build a better mouse trap.

Here it is, specs as follows 13 hp Perkins 400.05, Leece Neville 275 amp alternator, heat-exchanger cooled, Balmar MC614 controller, total weight 165 lbs. Fuel burn 1 liter per hr.

Output 3.6kw 12 volt dc, 7k btu domestic HW

Lloyd

below are some pics
Attached Thumbnails

[T1 Terry]

Well the head banging answers the second part anyway :lol:
So a run of the gen set for less than an hr each 24hrs, maybe not long enough to get the water heated though?

T1 Terry

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Well the head banging answers the second part anyway :lol:
So a run of the gen set for less than an hr each 24hrs, maybe not long enough to get the water heated though?

T1 Terry

Yep I have egg on my face.

[DotDun]

I don't think anyone is arguing the positive technical attributes of Li va La.

Here is the problem. Li has to work for me, I'm not going to buy just because they work for you!

Like I stated:

Originally Posted by DotDun

I paid $86/ea for my current T-105s 4 years ago. I believe the price is still ~$90/ea. Hence, 450ah/225ah useable for $360. That's $1.60/useable ah.

On Balqon the 300/ah LifeP04 are $315/ea = $1260 300ah/240ah useable. That's $5.25/useable ah.

LifeP04 costs 3.25 times more than decent LA. I love new technology, but still struggling with the cost difference.

If I get 6 years from my LA, will Li last 20 years?

Hard to swallow intangibles, it's doubtful Li will change our liveaboard power habits.

What about my existing charging equipment?
- can probably re-program the Balmar to work
- can probably re-program the Sterling shore power charger to work
- solar regulator? need to check voltages
- backup charging plan using alternator with dumb regulator?
- 14.2v constant while motoring? how about for 24 hours of motoring?

Hence, lots of work for no cost savings...?

Hopefully in 2 years if my LA expire, prices will come down on Li, I would really like to use it, but bang for buck has to be there.

The only response I got was from Dave questioning my price for T-105s. I called, current price is $92.50ea.

Hence, LifeP04 is still 3 times more $$ per usable ah.

Arguing usable ah La vs Li is frivolously, my current setup works for me. I use ~200-225ah/day. I run the generator in the morning (2-2.5hrs), which would still happen as my inverter isn't big enough to run all my AC appliances, plus you won't run a water heater on a 200+ah bank. If the solar (200w) doesn't keep up with daytime activities, the generator will run another hour at night. Longest time away from shorepower is 2-3 weeks.

AFAICT, for me to change to Li and "conform" to the new way:

1) - $1260 for 300ah of Li batteries
2) - $1000 for larger inverter so don't 'have' to run the genset on demand
3) - revisit plan B charging regime (14.2v constant, no smart regulator) $??

vs.

replace current T-105s at $370.

Topping of cells with water isn't a horrendous task, it happens on 2 month intervals. Batteries are not in the living space.

Then the question of will the Li last 15-20 years? No evidence to prove yes or no, only hope. I usually consider La as 5 year throw aways, I believe I can go 6 years on this set.

My T-105s have been down to 30-35% 3-4 times, hit 'em with a full charge/equalize and they come back with no signs of hurt. The only complaints I see on T-105s are from people who never charge them fully.

Like I said, I really hope Li prices drop in the next couple years. I would really like to use them. But, they have to make sense (to me) financially.

[deckofficer]

Li won't make economic sense to every boater, depends on usage. If you cycle your house bank 100 times a year or more go with Li. Charge acceptance with Li allows for less gen set run time, another savings. I would go with Li even if I cycle less than 100 times a year for all the intangibles such as,

Reduced weight
No corrosion
No explosive gasses
No holes in my clothes from acid
Much less lugging of replacement batteries
Almost flat discharge voltage curve
Minimal voltage sag under heavy loads
Installation doesn't require outside venting

If my needs were small and could be handled by (4) 220 a-hr golf cart batteries, I could use (4) 200 a-hr LiFePO4 cells in series and have more usable a-hr.

(4) golf cart LA $400, cycle life around 250~300 if treated well

(4) LiFePO4 cells $880 cycle life 2000+

Li sure looks cheaper to me if you cycle a lot per year.

[senormechanico]

I DO run a water heater on a 200 aH Li bank.
About 20 minutes a day to get 140 F., and 320 watts of solar makes up for it by the end of the day.
Aerogel insulation re wrap of the tank and scratch built fridge/freezer also made it possible.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by DotDun

I usually consider La as 5 year throw aways, I believe I can go 6 years on this set..

Not the real life expeerience I've seen for people our full time on the hook anchoring...the KILLER for LA batteries. If I could get 3yrs out of my 900AH T-105 bank I would be dancing the jig with excitement...

I see exaggeration from the LA sales guys....
I see hope and promise from the LiOn sales guys....

Throw in my experience with T-105's sucking for ME...my living off the Grid with no dock power....and like I said, I'm on my 3rd set of T-105's in 6 yrs and there will NOT be a 4th set going on my boat.

[nimblemotors]

The major advance of lithium is lighter weight. If that does not matter, then the other advantages may not be worth any additional cost.
Not having explosive fumes while charging in a boat seems like an important thing, but certainly nothing one can't get around, just like toxic diesel exhaust.

It looks to me like Winston is dead and Balqon can't get more batteries,
so where is another source? The prices seem to have gone UP, not down recently with limited supply.

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

It looks to me like Winston is dead and Balqon can't get more batteries,
so where is another source? The prices seem to have gone UP, not down recently with limited supply.

What is the story on Winston and Balqon???

[familycruisers]

Bought mine from CALIB in California. I was putting a cycle on my LA every night maintaining the frig. Would be at nominal around morning. We live aboard our boat full time and never go to marinas and even when we do its so nice to refuse the additional power charge. To each their own I suppose.

Btw, they were the brand new cells.

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by familycruisers

Bought mine from CALIB in California. I was putting a cycle on my LA every night maintaining the frig. Would be at nominal around morning. We live aboard our boat full time and never go to marinas and even when we do its so nice to refuse the additional power charge. To each their own I suppose.

Btw, they were the brand new cells.

Did you get the brand new grey cased cells? Because of the DIY EV'ers that EVTV Motor Verks Store caters to, they seem to move their Li stock at a good rate. I think they are the first to stock for retail sale the CALB cell new grey series.

[familycruisers]

Yes , they are the gray cells. Was going to put the stock number but I can't find that sheet I had.

[Jd1]

Besides being more expensive than Winstons and the new colour, what does the grey cell get you that makes it 'new and improved' ?

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by Jd1

Besides being more expensive than Winstons and the new colour, what does the grey cell get you that makes it 'new and improved' ?

Here are some tests and an explanation of the differences.
CALB CA180FI NEW LiFePo4 CELL - EVTV Motor Verks

familycruisers, I'd say you got fresh new cells as the grey have only been on the market for less than a year.