A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

[deckofficer]

Lloyd, it is just that I have a long history with batteries and their limitations in off grid and EV usage and these suckers impress me. If I had these cells 15 years ago I would have been the first in my EV group to have an honest 100+ mile range EV.

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

Lloyd, it is just that I have a long history with batteries and their limitations in off grid and EV usage and these suckers impress me. If I had these cells 15 years ago I would have been the first in my EV group to have an honest 100+ mile range EV.

Bob,

Don't get me wrong.

I love passion, but I don't want to be blinded by passion.

The truth will set you free, Passion will blind you.

So it's all good to cheer, as long as it doesn't effect your vision.

Vision is not what you want to see,

It's the history, of what you have seen.

let this be your guiding light.

lloyd

[deckofficer]

Lloyd,

The advances we have had in batteries the last 15 years, makes one wonder about what is ahead? Smartphones and ipads wouldn't be possible without them.

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

Lloyd,

The advances we have had in batteries the last 15 years, makes one wonder about what is ahead? Smartphones and ipads wouldn't be possible without them.

Smart phone and pads depended on quintessential ounces of battery material, So price per pound was an easy target.

Now muster this into, KW per pound and the price of lith... has not been able to meet the market.

Otherwise we would have no lead acid.

Let alone a multi-billion dollar consortium of ALAB.

If we were dependent on lith... Hy-bred, All -electric... cars would still be on the drawing boards

lloyd

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

Smart phone and pads depended on quintessential ounces of battery material, So price per pound was an easy target.

Now muster this into, KW per pound and the price of lith... has not been able to meet the market.

Otherwise we would have no lead acid.

Let alone a multi-billion dollar consortium of ALAB.

If we were dependent on lith... Hy-bred, All -electric... cars would still be on the drawing boards

lloyd

I don't think that's an accurate depiction of the issues.

Firstly Li battery production requires significantly more stringent production issues then LA , hence the higher costs.

The issue of Li availability is outlined fairly comprehensively in this report http://www.ensec.org/index.php?optio...809&Itemid=349

It summarises by saying that world deposits are more then adequate for future Li demands, including EV requirements. The issue is the complexity of the battery manufacture.

No doubt in time such complexity will be sorted and the costs of production will fall dramatically.

I mean currently Li is as cheap,as high quality Lead batteries or close.

Dave

[T1 Terry]

I did a cost comparison for someone a week or so back. These are prices with Aust so it may be cheaper all round in the US, but this was the break down in a post on another forum. It was in reply to a member saying the cost of lithium was far too high to think about

"This is not correct, a 480Ah La battery will give a max of 240Ah if the load never exceeds 24 amps while still maintaining a 12v output under the 24 amp load, if the battery started at 100% SOC.
A 200ah Li battery will maintain a 100 amp output @ 12v or more for the full 200Ah if required, or 200Ah or more at a lighter load, but that should never be added into the capacity requirement calculation if you want the extended cycle life. If you are happy with 1,000 cycle of 100% of the advertised capacity compared to 700 cycle to 50% SOC with a drop to 60% capacity from the LA batteries then by all means calculate the required capacity using the advertised capacity as the bench mark.
The quality of the chosen AGM battery is really the question here, if you are happy with lower quality AGM batteries then its not a fair comparison between the useable Ah of cheap AGM batteries to the useable Ah of quality Li batteries.
Quality for Quality, Rolls or Concorde are considerably more expensive than Winston Li for a matched useable capacity.
Rolls or Concorde, couldnt find Rolls for sale in Aust but Concorde http://www.solaronline.com.au/120ah-concorde-12v-agm-deep-cycle-battery.html $545.00 for 100Ah @ C20 rate, only 50% useable = $10.90 per useable Ah
A lower quality like lifeline, still a good quality AGM battery mind you http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/shop/product/4264/gpl-27t.html , $488 for advertised 100Ah so double that for 100 useable Ah = $9.76 per Ah
The average quality AGM, Fullriver http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/shop/product/22424/dc105-12b-(fullriver).html $337.52 @ C20 rate, 50% useable = 6.75 per useable Ah
Winston LYP, http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=BAT-LFP100AHA $134 plus GST per 3.2v x 4 = 12.8v @ C2 rate (not C20 rate) = $5.90 per useable Ah

As you can see from the above figures, matching apples with apples Li is far cheaper per Ah than AGM.

I am not endorsing any of the quoted suppliers, they are purely for reference value and you are welcome to Google search and prove my figures incorrect, but I very much doubt you will be able to find true useable Ah for AGM batteries at the quoted price for Winston LYP batteries.

T1 Terry

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I don't think that's an accurate depiction of the issues.

Firstly Li battery production requires significantly more stringent production issues then LA , hence the higher costs.

The issue of Li availability is outlined fairly comprehensively in this report The Future of Electric Vehicles: Setting the Record Straight on Lithium Availability

It summarises by saying that world deposits are more then adequate for future Li demands, including EV requirements. The issue is the complexity of the battery manufacture.

No doubt in time such complexity will be sorted and the costs of production will fall dramatically.

I mean currently Li is as cheap,as high quality Lead batteries or close.

Dave

Dave,

it's not quite so Simple.

The economics are what is important.

As example.

My boat a 52 foot. power boat. My average 24 hr amp load is 120 amp hrs.

I put in 2001 6 trojan t-125's for a bank of 12 volt of 720 amp hrs.

My costs were $66.00 USD each so say $396.00USD plus tax.

I replaced them in 2010, that's nine boat seasons at a costs of $44.00USD per year plus tax.

Now my boat season is as follows leave the dock, on August 1, return to dock on Sept.15, between those times we do about 20 weekends per year.

In 2010 I replaced the same 6 trojans with the same trojan T-125's, this time they were at a costs of $109.00 USD plus tax, or $654.00 USD.

I expect that I will see similar usage from the same. $654.00 USD, or $72.66USD per year

So we are expecting to spend over the course of 18 years $1050.00 USD for conventional FLA's. Or $58.33 USD per year averaged over 18 years.

Now how many 9 year cycles can I have for the same money spent using lith....ion?

lloyd

[Maine Sail]

Terry,

FWIW A Lifeline battery is made by Concorde battery. Same company but the Lifeline brand is their deep cycling line and Concorde brand is aircraft..

[goboatingnow]

Your costs using today's pricing for Trojans is approx $2.57 per Ah per replacement period , using Winston cells this equates to about $ 4.8 per Ah for the equivalent capacity ( circa 300 Ah) , given the expected life at your fairly low cycles , it would easily be expected that the Li cells would last twice as long as the Trojans.

Hence actually over the timescales you mention Li would be slightly cheaper. ( notwithstanding the future value of money issue ) coupled with the far superior characteristics of Li technology

Dave

[FlyingCloud1937]

Now that is a real TWIST!

There aren't any 18 yo Li Banks

My dollars were averaged over 18 years so the time value of money would be hard to extrapolate, in the best of circumstances.

In the end my system has performed flawlessly, for it's designed purpose.

So there is no advantage to Li! for me Todate.

As a former banker, I find any argument, nothing but salesmanship.

Going into the future, as a bean counter, I can quickly be swayed, in the direction of money earned!

Just show me the way.

lloyd

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Your costs using today's pricing for Trojans is approx $2.57 per Ah per replacement period , using Winston cells this equates to about $ 4.8 per Ah for the equivalent capacity ( circa 300 Ah) , given the expected life at your fairly low cycles , it would easily be expected that the Li cells would last twice as long as the Trojans.

Hence actually over the timescales you mention Li would be slightly cheaper. ( notwithstanding the future value of money issue ) coupled with the far superior characteristics of Li technology

Dave

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Your costs using today's pricing for Trojans is approx $2.57 per Ah per replacement period ,

Dave

Dave, that number comes up to 308.40 USD per 6 volt bat.

Over twice what I pay for T-125's per piece.

Are you trying to play game?????

Lloyd

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

Now that is a real TWIST!

There aren't any 18 yo Li Banks

My dollars were averaged over 18 years so the time value of money would be hard to extrapolate, in the best of circumstances.

In the end my system has performed flawlessly, for it's designed purpose.

So there is no advantage to Li! for me Todate.

As a former banker, I find any argument, nothing but salesmanship.

Going into the future, as a bean counter, I can quickly be swayed, in the direction of money earned!

Just show me the way.

lloyd

I would argue that the improved characteristics of Li more then adequately compensate , comparing LA and Li isnt really doing a apples and apples comparison.

No doubt as a bean counter , you have the cheapest $ per foot boat too ! ,

Presently using your Trojan batteries we are at around $300 per 12v 240AH ( at C20) derating to C10 and applying 50% discharge , provides a nominal capacity of around 100Ah , ie about $3 per Ah

Currently LiFePo4 is retailing around $1.1 per nominal Ah per cell , resulting in ( using 80% DOD) $5.5 per Ah at nominal 125Ah derated (80%) to provide 100Ah

One could in fact that argue this is unfair to Li. , as LA capacity degrades quite quickly over the expected life cycle and in fact , particularly using onboard charging , the batteries often never charge above %80 , resulting in fact , that extracting even the 50 % Ah capacity is rarely achieved, whereas in Li there is no need to recharge to 100 % hence the battery provides even more usable Ah under those conditions.

$ for $ Li is in the ball park , and T125 are fairly bog standard medium quality batteries unlike AGMs or TPPL lead batteries etc. ( ie not capable of fast charge , high self discharge , spillage , watering , etc )

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

Dave, that number comes up to 308.40 USD per 6 volt bat.

Over twice what I pay for T-125's per piece.

Are you trying to play game?????

Lloyd

Show me a current online price for t125 in the US. , typically I found the battery at $154

Dave

[FlyingCloud1937]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Show me a current online price for t125 in the US. , typically I found the battery at $154

Dave

i am a trojan Dealer,

So I quoted my costs, but to be fair.

I quoted my prices, beginning, middle, and end.

Lloyd


And what is the the Dealer costs for Lith...., in the same amp hr range.

Assuming it 50% more available, I see about $2400.00 USD for 250 amp hr Lith...

or

$220.00 USD Trojan FLA's, give or take a couple of amp hrs.

But you say I need only half the lith... amp hrs, so that makes it $1200.00 USD fora 125 amp bank. Show me the money.

Now you say, but I'll give you 4 times the cycles, same money.

I say show me the money.

Nothing a sales team can do, to overcome the pure fact that lith... costs more money per lb, and the fact that it's a early adopters game.

Some day it may, but it's not today.

Unless you cycle the bank every day, but I would have to do the numbers to see that it worked for the JOB at Hand.

Lloyd

[FlyingCloud1937]

On top of that show me a Li...bank that is nine years old...

no show me one that is 4.5 years old.

Lloyd

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

i am a trojan Dealer,

So I quoted my costs, but to be fair.

I quoted my prices, beginning, middle, and end.

Lloyd


And what is the the Dealer costs for Lith...., in the same amp hr range.

Assuming it 50% more available, I see about $2400.00 USD for 250 amp hr Lith...

or

$220.00 USD Trojan FLA's, give or take a couple of amp hrs.

But you say I need only half the lith... amp hrs, so that makes it $1200.00 USD fora 125 amp bank. Show me the money.

Now you say, but I'll give you 4 times the cycles, same money.

I say show me the money.

Nothing a sales team can do, to overcome the pure fact that lith... costs more money per lb, and the fact that it's a early adopters game.

Some day it may, but it's not today.

Unless you cycle the bank every day, but I would have to do the numbers to see that it worked for the JOB at Hand.

Lloyd