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View Poll Results: If you are currently using LiFePO4 cells for a house bank, propulsion, or both.
Lead is dead, never going back 49 94.23%
Big mistake, going back to lead. 3 5.77%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14-12-2013, 17:18   #121
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
What is the story on Winston and Balqon???
There was a story in the LA Business Journal about Balqon heading into BK. The President hasn't been paid in months an then only in more diluted shares of penny stocks.

Their most recent 10-Q report states; “We are in default of $3,361,500 in principal amount of our convertible notes and $556,677 of accrued interest on these notes. Although we are actively pursuing a number of alternatives, including seeking to restructure our debt and seeking to raise additional debt or equity financing, or both, there can be no assurance that we will be successful. If we cannot restructure our debt and obtain sufficient liquidity in the very near term, we may need to seek to protection under the U.S. Bankruptcy Code.

The penny stock market makers are abuzz, about Balqon.
Winston Chung now owns 46% of Balqon.

Winston defaulted on a Real Estate purchase to the tun of $175 million USD in Newport Beach, said he couldn't raise the money.

Lloyd
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Old 14-12-2013, 17:41   #122
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Balqon heavy equipment is having some financial woes but it looks like their LiFePO4 cells is growing a larger customer base. It is out of text posts like the above that can sink a struggling company. Here are some more pieces to the puzzle.....

"In the second quarter, as much as 73% of sales came from lithium batteries sales (Balqon Corporation is the exclusive distributor of lithium batteries manufactured by China company Winston Battery Limited). But reduced drive system sales means lower revenues."

"What is good is that Balqon will have some big orders for batteries on the horizon, but time will show if the heavy duty commercial EV market is big enough for Balqon to succeed."


I wish them success even though my cells were 3 years old from them and delayed in receiving them (maybe they were holding up my order for receiving new cells from China), they did refund me $380 for my inconvenience. To me, this means they try to have satisfied customers. I feel like I introduced Balqon to the marine market and vise versa. They still have the best prices and have shown another example of taking care of their customers when a member here on CF got delayed order upgraded from 400 a-hr to 700 a-hr no charge. That customer has reported here how happy he is with those 700 a-hr cells.

Balqon is trying to make a go of it in selling cells as it looks like the demand for their electric yard tractors has fallen off. Either way I don't think the demise of Winston's sole US wholesaler is probable.
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Old 14-12-2013, 18:08   #123
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I have tried contacting Balqon vie email over the last two weeks for some smaller cells and never received an answer. I tried the CEO as well.
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Old 14-12-2013, 18:13   #124
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Bob,

Read the article in the LA Business Journal, they actually interviewed Samra, he said he is owed more then 1 million USD, and does not know what will happen by years end, the artical was published late in October.

He stated in the article that, that they couldn't not make it on battery sales alone. They need to sell their primary product, to have enough margin to make a return and pay the bills.

Battery sales are an incidental, in other words they will go out of business if they were only to sell batteries.

Lloyd



Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
Balqon heavy equipment is having some financial woes but it looks like their LiFePO4 cells is growing a larger customer base. It is out of text posts like the above that can sink a struggling company. Here are some more pieces to the puzzle.....

"In the second quarter, as much as 73% of sales came from lithium batteries sales (Balqon Corporation is the exclusive distributor of lithium batteries manufactured by China company Winston Battery Limited). But reduced drive system sales means lower revenues."

"What is good is that Balqon will have some big orders for batteries on the horizon, but time will show if the heavy duty commercial EV market is big enough for Balqon to succeed."


I wish them success even though my cells were 3 years old from them and delayed in receiving them (maybe they were holding up my order for receiving new cells from China), they did refund me $380 for my inconvenience. To me, this means they try to have satisfied customers. I feel like I introduced Balqon to the marine market and vise versa. They still have the best prices and have shown another example of taking care of their customers when a member here on CF got delayed order upgraded from 400 a-hr to 700 a-hr no charge. That customer has reported here how happy he is with those 700 a-hr cells.

Balqon is trying to make a go of it in selling cells as it looks like the demand for their electric yard tractors has fallen off. Either way I don't think the demise of Winston's sole US wholesaler is probable.
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Old 14-12-2013, 19:37   #125
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

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Originally Posted by roetter View Post
I have tried contacting Balqon vie email over the last two weeks for some smaller cells and never received an answer. I tried the CEO as well.
I exchanged 3 emails last week with Samra in reference to installing the cells on their side and shipping charges. I am looking to build a 700ah to 1000ah bank and the website was quoting $1800 for shipping. He said shipping would be around $350 to NJ. From previous posts maybe I need to purchase the cells before the year ends.
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Old 14-12-2013, 20:38   #126
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

I got my 8 700 aH cells (originally ordered 8 400 aH) for $150 shipping to Washington State.
The original shipping quote was a lot more.
I forget how much it was, but we asked, "We're not in a hurry, isn't there a cheaper way?"
The next day, we got our $150 quote.

And yeah, I'd buy something that's IN STOCK.
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Old 14-12-2013, 22:14   #127
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

I think the supply problem could be at Winston's end, the last 32 x 100Ah cells were less than 1mth old according to the guarantee papers with the listed cell numbers. That's not bad from China to the other side of Aust to here on the east coast, so the stock certainly is moving, supply capabilities may soon become an issue though. For the batch to be ex production within 1 mth to a back water like Aust means there is very little stock in the warehouse so a whole heap of product must be going some where.
As for Winston Chung having difficulty raising the $$ for a purchase of property …have seen his car collection/ No one who is struggling for a $$ has a collection of vehicles like that. Maybe he found better value for his money in investments else where, I don’t think there is must Aust property on the market that the Chinese haven’t snatched up so they are exactly cash strapped over there at the moment.

T1 Terry
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Old 14-12-2013, 22:40   #128
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
I don't think anyone is arguing the positive technical attributes of Li va La.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post

Here is the problem. Li has to work for me, I'm not going to buy just because they work for you!

Like I stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun
I paid $86/ea for my current T-105s 4 years ago. I believe the price is still ~$90/ea. Hence, 450ah/225ah useable for $360. That's $1.60/useable ah.

On Balqon the 300/ah LifeP04 are $315/ea = $1260 300ah/240ah useable. That's $5.25/useable ah.

LifeP04 costs 3.25 times more than decent LA. I love new technology, but still struggling with the cost difference.

If I get 6 years from my LA, will Li last 20 years?

Hard to swallow intangibles, it's doubtful Li will change our liveaboard power habits.

What about my existing charging equipment?
- can probably re-program the Balmar to work
- can probably re-program the Sterling shore power charger to work
- solar regulator? need to check voltages
- backup charging plan using alternator with dumb regulator?
- 14.2v constant while motoring? how about for 24 hours of motoring?

Hence, lots of work for no cost savings...?

Hopefully in 2 years if my LA expire, prices will come down on Li, I would really like to use it, but bang for buck has to be there.


The only response I got was from Dave questioning my price for T-105s. I called, current price is $92.50ea.

Hence, LifeP04 is still 3 times more $$ per usable ah.

Arguing usable ah La vs Li is frivolously, my current setup works for me. I use ~200-225ah/day. I run the generator in the morning (2-2.5hrs), which would still happen as my inverter isn't big enough to run all my AC appliances, plus you won't run a water heater on a 200+ah bank. If the solar (200w) doesn't keep up with daytime activities, the generator will run another hour at night. Longest time away from shorepower is 2-3 weeks.

AFAICT, for me to change to Li and "conform" to the new way:

1) - $1260 for 300ah of Li batteries
2) - $1000 for larger inverter so don't 'have' to run the genset on demand
3) - revisit plan B charging regime (14.2v constant, no smart regulator) $??

vs.

replace current T-105s at $370.

Topping of cells with water isn't a horrendous task, it happens on 2 month intervals. Batteries are not in the living space.

Then the question of will the Li last 15-20 years? No evidence to prove yes or no, only hope. I usually consider La as 5 year throw aways, I believe I can go 6 years on this set.

My T-105s have been down to 30-35% 3-4 times, hit 'em with a full charge/equalize and they come back with no signs of hurt. The only complaints I see on T-105s are from people who never charge them fully.

Like I said, I really hope Li prices drop in the next couple years. I would really like to use them. But, they have to make sense (to me) financially.


.
You have lost me with your maths, if your total Ah per 24hrs is 225Ah, you run a gen set for 2 hrs in the morning and another hr at night, why do you need 300Ah of lithium batteries?
You give no figures for the output of you battery charging set up but 225Ah over a 24hr period = 9.375Ah per hr. 3 hrs of generator time brings the battery load time down to 21hrs, so the battery requirement for 21hrs @ 9.375Ah/hr = 196.875Ah required, let’s call it 200Ah. A gen run recharge twice a day splits that in half so the real storage requirement is now 100Ah .
Quote “Longest time away from shorepower is 2-3 weeks” 3 weeks is 21 days, cycled twice a day is 42 cycles per trip. So the factory quoted 1,000 cycles to 100% DoD would power your requirements for 23.8 x 3 week trips, for an investment of $420, based on your quoted pricing for Li batteries v $370 for your quoted T105 replacements ….. your argument doesn’t seem to hold too much water does it?

T1 Terry
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Old 15-12-2013, 08:44   #129
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by T1 Terry View Post
You have lost me with your maths, if your total Ah per 24hrs is 225Ah, you run a gen set for 2 hrs in the morning and another hr at night, why do you need 300Ah of lithium batteries?
You give no figures for the output of you battery charging set up but 225Ah over a 24hr period = 9.375Ah per hr. 3 hrs of generator time brings the battery load time down to 21hrs, so the battery requirement for 21hrs @ 9.375Ah/hr = 196.875Ah required, let’s call it 200Ah. A gen run recharge twice a day splits that in half so the real storage requirement is now 100Ah .
Quote “Longest time away from shorepower is 2-3 weeks” 3 weeks is 21 days, cycled twice a day is 42 cycles per trip. So the factory quoted 1,000 cycles to 100% DoD would power your requirements for 23.8 x 3 week trips, for an investment of $420, based on your quoted pricing for Li batteries v $370 for your quoted T105 replacements ….. your argument doesn’t seem to hold too much water does it?

T1 Terry
Calm down...sorry if I offended your affection for Li...

So now the rules are changing?

I was working with:
Li usable ah = 80% DoD
La usable ah = 50% DoD

My experience tells me La works reasonable well using the 50% number.

You are suggesting to take Li to 100% DoD? I doubt that would be a pleasant threshold to reach at anchor in the middle of night.

Remember, when the charger is maintaining the house, those amps don't go into the battery, so during bulk charge phase, the batteries don't get charger rated capacity.

My charging regime obviously keeps up, so it isn't hard to calculate. I already stated 200W of solar, which I count on for ~40-50ah/day. I have up to 95A of charging with the genset running. Obviously, the batteries only accept that amount for 30-45min. Depending on SOC, the evening genset run may/may not happen, but it isn't a full charge, just enough to provide peace of mind that we'll be OK overnight.

FWIW, the most we see on the monitor is 140-160ah consumed energy.

You still suggest 100ah of Li???
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Old 15-12-2013, 10:16   #130
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

If it "isn't a full charge", where are you getting the "50% charge number"?

I'm seeing a bit of normalcy bias.
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Old 15-12-2013, 10:22   #131
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

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If it "isn't a full charge", where are you getting the "50% charge number"?

I'm seeing a bit of normalcy bias.
What 50% charge number?
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Old 15-12-2013, 12:28   #132
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

I think it is that you should only use 50% (80%->30%) of Lead Acid's potential energy to ensure long life and as many cycles as possible. With LiFePO4, you can go from down to 30% from a full 100% charge and still get 3,000 cycles. If you go down to 20% (and use 80% of the Ah) you get 2,000 cycles.

Now, those might be old, untested in the real world numbers for LiFePO4. Reality might be better or worse. But, it isn't obviously worse, or we would be hearing stories about them by now.
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Old 15-12-2013, 16:20   #133
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Nah, not upset about genuine comparisons between any product, it's when apples aren't being compared to apples is when I try to offer a correction
Quote:
So now the rules are changing?

I was working with:
Li usable ah = 80% DoD
La usable ah = 50% DoD

You still suggest 100ah of Li???

I can only go off what the manufacture says and the charts displayed. Bob (Deck Officer) is giving his 100Ah battery a real thrashing so he can give us hands on results soon.
I'll attach the chart for the Winston LYP 100Ah cell from their PDF. You can see in the top right hand corner of the chart, these voltages are while under a 0.5C load, or in this case, 50 amps from a 100Ah battery.
There are still some disputes as just what this chart reveals, will a 100% discharge to the advertised capacity only give 1000 cycles? Or only 1,000 cycles until the 100% capacity is no longer available, then the cycle life is displayed for the remain capacity, after 3,000 cycles better than 90% capacity will remain, at 5,000 cycles around 80% of capacity will remain and so on. What appears to support this thinking is each discharge curve starts at a lower voltage while under load so this would reflect the load effect on voltage with an aging lithium cell.

T1 Terry
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Old 15-12-2013, 16:41   #134
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

T1 Terry,

Cycles 1~40 about 1/2 were as you put it, "a thrashing." Cycles 41~current have been 2 hours at 40 amps or 80 amps pulled from the 100 a-hr cells. Resting voltage after these 80 amp draws has been 3.25 VPC or 13.0 volt pack voltage, so no longer thrashing.
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Old 15-12-2013, 17:46   #135
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Excellent info on both lfp threads. Thanks for those have contributed their time and money to share with the rest of us. High hopes that these open up even more doors to fossil free boating Keep up the great work and info!!
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