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View Poll Results: If you are currently using LiFePO4 cells for a house bank, propulsion, or both.
Lead is dead, never going back 49 94.23%
Big mistake, going back to lead. 3 5.77%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 13-12-2013, 10:37   #91
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Dave,

I was on main street, the Bankers you speak of are/were investment bankers big difference. It use to be they only gambled other peoples money. Then they realized they could gamble share holder money, then came the classic house of cards.

I'm not against Li... I'm all for the decision being driven by analysis. So in my own boat the way I use it. It would be silly for me to spend the money/waste.

Going into the future as prices meet the market, the demand should bring those costs down. Todays pricing is far cheaper then when I installed the 2 Li.. banks 3 years ago.

There is a new kid on the block that will also change the rules of the game.

As of today there are 5 new "Advanced Lead Acid Batteries" that have been in testing over the the last 4-5 years. They are ready to hit main street.

Deka has the new UltraBattery, JC, Trojan, and all the other big players are almost ready to roll out.

The Advanced Lead Acid Battery Consortium for your reading pleasure.

Deka Ultrabattery test result

Lloyd

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
A Trojan dealer and a former Banker , its a wonder you able to go outside LOL.

I have to laugh at a former banker giving " lessons" in business/future gazing . That's priceless, given they virtually took the western economy down singlehanded.

Now back to normal programming and cuddly LiFePo4

Remember Lloyd. " there will be only 5 computers in the world " " there is no use for this Telephone " etc.


Dave
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Old 13-12-2013, 10:48   #92
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
bigwhyte,

Please share your negative experience with LiFePO4.
Li on an O'day 22 would be interesting to see.
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Old 13-12-2013, 10:56   #93
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Li on an O'day 22 would be interesting to see.
Maybe just a case of "....nothing has 100% satisfaction, got to change that."

One of my little Li packs @ 30 lbs would be a good fit for a O'Day 22.
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Old 13-12-2013, 11:16   #94
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Dave,

I was on main street, the Bankers you speak of are/were investment bankers big difference. It use to be they only gambled other peoples money. Then they realized they could gamble share holder money, then came the classic house of cards.

I'm not against Li... I'm all for the decision being driven by analysis. So in my own boat the way I use it. It would be silly for me to spend the money/waste.

Going into the future as prices meet the market, the demand should bring those costs down. Todays pricing is far cheaper then when I installed the 2 Li.. banks 3 years ago.

There is a new kid on the block that will also change the rules of the game.

As of today there are 5 new "Advanced Lead Acid Batteries" that have been in testing over the the last 4-5 years. They are ready to hit main street.

Deka has the new UltraBattery, JC, Trojan, and all the other big players are almost ready to roll out.

The Advanced Lead Acid Battery Consortium for your reading pleasure.

Deka Ultrabattery test result

Lloyd

Lloyd,

Deka made that announcement back in September of 2008...... It's been nearly 6 years since, and they still don't have it totally launched. That said these batteries, per Deka's guy in charge of the Ultra Battery, Chuck M., are intended for partial state of charge design systems (hybrid) and mid cycle cycling. IIRC they really don't want them cycling in the above 70% range as they were designed for hybrid applications & cycling between approx 40% SOC and 70% SOC.. This makes them not a good fit for boats.

They are working on a technology they call "BP" (PM me if you want the name of the technology) but that is still a few years out and they don't yet know where that will fit for off-grid / house bank use.
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Old 13-12-2013, 17:20   #95
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Do you appreciate that with LiFEPO you can (for a 2/3 the weight) have double the power and stay out for 4 or 5 days without ever running the gen set or engine. And when you do need to charger them, they absorb almost every amp you put in! My AGMs would never do that! My AGMs lasted 9 years. I expect these will last longer and save me many hours of gen set/engine time. I don't like the smell of diesel or the noise. Oh for the golf folks, how often do you have to poor distilled water into each cell and what is that costing you (time and money)?
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Old 13-12-2013, 17:57   #96
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

PS: I live on my batteries! I installed 300lbs of LIPO to replace 460lbs of AGM and for that I have 650Amp/hr of power on each cycle as apposed to 370Amp/hr on the first day from shore and 220Amp/hr or less each day after until I could run the gen set for many-many hours or plug in at a marina. The list price for an 8D is $700. How many 8Ds will it take to get 650Amp/hr of power on each cycle. 650Ah = 30% of ? 2167Ah = 8.6 8D batt or about 1340lbs of lead!!! So to get the power I have now, would take 1300+ pounds of lead, and I have that much power for only 300+ pounds of LiFePO.
Yes they cost more- mine were $220 per 3V 200Amp cell, and that is less than the $700 x 8.6 for 8D LA batts for the same capacity, and I get to float 1000lbs higher on the water line.
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Old 13-12-2013, 19:13   #97
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Not to mention no gasses, corrosion, or holes in clothes. Also mount anywhere and no need for ventilation.
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Old 13-12-2013, 19:27   #98
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

I can't get these damn 8 T-105's off my boat fast enough in exchange for a LiOn Bank. Full time off the grid (or dock) living at anchor and on a mooring ball is a complete different world of challanges for a battery bank. Moving from shore power cord to shore power cord as a lot of cruisers I see doing removes a lot of battery bank drama.

We use about 200AH per day and it's just hell on the T-105 bank no matter how much I baby them with top-off charging. We are on our 3rd T-105 bank in 6yrs and I hope my 4th bank makes the LiOn change!

Before the "Rich are you taking proper care of your batteries" comments start, yes, I do all the things right from bringing them back to a full SOC every few days, water, equalize, hydrometer, battery monitor, lighting candles in Church, bla bla bla. But the 900AH battery bank still doesn't like the daily 200AH coming in/out. I'm just done spending $1000 every few years not to mention bunning acid holes in some of my favorite cruising shirts!
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Old 13-12-2013, 19:50   #99
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Rich, ask Balqon if they still have the clearance sale on the 700 a-hr cells for $560 each. Since Winston underrates their cells by 15% those 700 a-hr cells will deliver 805 a-hr X 80% DOD = 644 a-hr. That is 3 days at your usage with no charging.
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Old 13-12-2013, 21:01   #100
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Paid a thousand for my 200ah bank and would do it again in a heartbeat. They simply are spectacular. I can go two, almost three days before they have to be charged. So those cloudy or rainy days aren't that big a deal. Had to start my diesel twice during the week long noreaster. Lead is dead.
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Old 13-12-2013, 21:14   #101
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
Dave,

I was on main street, the Bankers you speak of are/were investment bankers big difference. It use to be they only gambled other peoples money. Then they realized they could gamble share holder money, then came the classic house of cards.

I'm not against Li... I'm all for the decision being driven by analysis. So in my own boat the way I use it. It would be silly for me to spend the money/waste.

Going into the future as prices meet the market, the demand should bring those costs down. Todays pricing is far cheaper then when I installed the 2 Li.. banks 3 years ago.

There is a new kid on the block that will also change the rules of the game.

As of today there are 5 new "Advanced Lead Acid Batteries" that have been in testing over the the last 4-5 years. They are ready to hit main street.

Deka has the new UltraBattery, JC, Trojan, and all the other big players are almost ready to roll out.

The Advanced Lead Acid Battery Consortium for your reading pleasure.

Deka Ultrabattery test result

Lloyd
Lloyd,

You must be on the board of ALBAC.
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Old 13-12-2013, 21:25   #102
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

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Paid a thousand for my 200ah bank and would do it again in a heartbeat. They simply are spectacular. I can go two, almost three days before they have to be charged. So those cloudy or rainy days aren't that big a deal. Had to start my diesel twice during the week long noreaster. Lead is dead.
Not to mention 73 lb total bank weight vs 365 lb of lead for less usable a-hr.
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Old 13-12-2013, 22:59   #103
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

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Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937 View Post
On top of that show me a Li...bank that is nine years old...

no show me one that is 4.5 years old.

Lloyd
Sorry Lloyd, been busy celebration the season for a few days.
Would a system that's been operating every day for 10 yrs with no hands on maintenance and is still functioning well beyond any expectation in an extremely harsh environment quality?
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You see Lloyd, your claim of getting 9yrs service from your Trojan batteries is a complete distortion of the truth isn't it? The batteries may have been fitted to the boat for 9 yrs but you have not had 9 yrs use out of them have you? They really spend most of their life on a charger don't they? Each time they are discharged to the average max discharge capacity your system uses can be counted as a day, do still want to claim they have given you 9 yrs service?
Talk about sales spin

T1 Terry
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Old 14-12-2013, 00:05   #104
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

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Lloyd,

You must be on the board of ALBAC.
NO!!!

I am on the board of "Show Me The Money"


It seems, really That I am the Lighting Rod of bats.

Or maybe, I'm really sadistic.

Or maybe, I'm just misunderstood by cheerleaders,

And some real people recognize, when I'm poking the pig.


Lloyd
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Old 14-12-2013, 00:26   #105
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Re: A poll Happy with LiFe (PO4)?

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Originally Posted by T1 Terry View Post
Sorry Lloyd, been busy celebration the season for a few days.
Would a system that's been operating every day for 10 yrs with no hands on maintenance and is still functioning well beyond any expectation in an extremely harsh environment quality?
Mars Exploration Rover Mission: Home
You see Lloyd, your claim of getting 9yrs service from your Trojan batteries is a complete distortion of the truth isn't it? The batteries may have been fitted to the boat for 9 yrs but you have not had 9 yrs use out of them have you? They really spend most of their life on a charger don't they? Each time they are discharged to the average max discharge capacity your system uses can be counted as a day, do still want to claim they have given you 9 yrs service?
Talk about sales spin

T1 Terry

This is exactly what I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
I don't think that's an accurate depiction of the issues.

Firstly Li battery production requires significantly more stringent production issues then LA , hence the higher costs.

The issue of Li availability is outlined fairly comprehensively in this report The Future of Electric Vehicles: Setting the Record Straight on Lithium Availability

It summarises by saying that world deposits are more then adequate for future Li demands, including EV requirements. The issue is the complexity of the battery manufacture.

No doubt in time such complexity will be sorted and the costs of production will fall dramatically.

I mean currently Li is as cheap,as high quality Lead batteries or close.

Dave
Dave,

it's not quite so Simple.

The economics are what is important.

As example.

My boat a 52 foot. power boat. My average 24 hr amp load is 120 amp hrs.

I put in 2001 6 trojan t-125's for a bank of 12 volt of 720 amp hrs.

My costs were $66.00 USD each so say $396.00USD plus tax.

I replaced them in 2010, that's nine boat seasons at a costs of $44.00USD per year plus tax.

Now my boat season is as follows leave the dock, on August 1, return to dock on Sept.15, between those times we do about 20 weekends per year.

In 2010 I replaced the same 6 trojans with the same trojan T-125's, this time they were at a costs of $109.00 USD plus tax, or $654.00 USD.

I expect that I will see similar usage from the same. $654.00 USD, or $72.66USD per year

So we are expecting to spend over the course of 18 years $1050.00 USD for conventional FLA's. Or $58.33 USD per year averaged over 18 years.

Now how many 9 year cycles can I have for the same money spent using lith....ion?

lloyd
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