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Old 25-09-2012, 04:58   #16
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post
Surely you can do it with a voltmeter...
Batteries don't need to be murdered.
First start with good batteries
Then a good alternator with an adjustable external regulator.

No matter what the state of your batteries, you know that if you're down in the 11.5 volt area they're really quite discharged.
If you run the engine/ plug in shore power and they're up to 14.5 volts in a minute or two and there's no appreciable load on the engine..the batteries are sulphated, which generally means stuffed
You don;t need one of those fancy gadgets to tell you that !
Buy good batteries..keep em charged right up...when you're out there and they get down to ~50%...for me 12.4V... charge em up...and allow them to ABSORB the charge
Both my solar MPPT reg and the Next Step engine alt reg are set for 180 mins absorption time for a 525 Ah bank of AGMS
AND EQUALISE them every 4 weeks or so...even AGMs
Let the Volts rise up to 15.5 or so and keep it there for an hour or two once a month will do wonders for battery longevity and maintenance..flooded and AGM.
My AGMs have been in the boat since 2008 and they're still working well

This is somewhat of a fairy tale. For example using 12.4v as an indicator under load, will not tell you anything reliable about the SOC.

As for equalisations, unless specifically required by the AGM manufactuers I would not equalise. Batteries kept properly charged do not need equalization.

Batteries on mine since 2006 and working fine.

( see these statements mean nothing, it just means we all recharged them enough)
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Old 25-09-2012, 05:43   #17
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Thumbs down Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
This is somewhat of a fairy tale. For example using 12.4v as an indicator under load, will not tell you anything reliable about the SOC.

As for equalisations, unless specifically required by the AGM manufactuers I would not equalise. Batteries kept properly charged do not need equalization.

Batteries on mine since 2006 and working fine.

( see these statements mean nothing, it just means we all recharged them enough)
REALLY ???

Go and have a look at what battery manufacturers say about battery care.
What ever batteries you have...check with the manufacturer
Its not f...ing fairy tales
It works !!!

You need to understand the charging criteria and also the maintenance criteria

Batteries kept properly charged do not need equalization.

Batteries on mine since 2006 and working fine.

BS
How do you know? What criteria are you using to make a "global" statement like that ?
Where is your evidence ?
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Old 25-09-2012, 05:45   #18
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Amazon about fifty bucks for the meter I posted.

Comes in two versions. One sits near the battery, the other has a 6' (?) cord for mounting a short distance away. Say in the cockpit or by the electrical switches. Has a low beep if your battery needs attention like charging.

Meter will tell you if the battery will crank the engine to start. Keeps track of cranking amps, volts from previous starts and measures the remaining lifespan of the battery. Will tell you when to replace battery before it goes bad.

This is not just a battery meter, it is a computerized load tester that warns you of trouble long before you would notice an issue with a normal battery meter.

Easy to install. A child can install it.

If you have fifty bucks you have no excuse for ever getting stranded with a bad battery again.

This meter will also tell you if the new battery you just purchased is really up to the specs of a new battery or if it is showing age from sitting too long or has manufacture defects.

Has two meter functions. A cranking amps meter and a deep cycle meter. Simple and easy to use.

Will not destroy the looks of any boat. No holes to drill if you choose to mount on the battery. Maybe no holes to drill for a remote location depending on install. Wires will feed through a pretty small opening, say through a crack in a joint of a wall. I used the 6' cord model for the application on my V8 motorcycle. No holes drilled and a nice look to it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0029V...=AMHFTRUFRWSGY

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000NV...8575199&sr=8-1


http://youtu.be/KaBfw77J7fY
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Old 25-09-2012, 06:22   #19
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Researching info for the links above, I noticed amazon had an open box unit for $30 bucks with free 2nd day shipping. Snatched that baby up. Karma. Pays to help others! Ain't life grand!
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Old 25-09-2012, 06:36   #20
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

The only real problem with the battery bug is that it's not a true measure of capacity or consumption. It really is only a volt meter on steroids (with some blackened voodoo magic algorithm to create a state of charge display).

A good product, but in no way a viable replacement for a true amp hour meter that utilizes a shunt to measure every last little electron in or out of the batteries.
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Old 25-09-2012, 06:45   #21
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

You know when it comes down to it a battery monitor is just another tool to use. One has to decide how it is best to use on their boat.

On my boat the panel amp meter only tells me amps out, and then only those going though the main DC panel (doesn't read the inverter use). And it doesn't tell me charging amps with the engine running (unlike my last boat that the charging circuit went back though the panel). So I wouldn't have any idea of the SOC based on the amps in without the battery monitor.

I also like to be able to know the total amp-hrs out of the battery to plan around how long I need to run the engine when coming home on the weekend (so I start it before getting in so not to just have to sit around waiting to charge the batteries back up for a hour or 2).

Monitors are pretty inexpensive compared to the use you can make of them. As long as you don't just blindly believe everything it tells you it is a good tool.
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Old 25-09-2012, 06:53   #22
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

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Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post
AND EQUALISE them every 4 weeks or so...even AGMs
Let the Volts rise up to 15.5 or so and keep it there for an hour or two once a month will do wonders for battery longevity and maintenance..flooded and AGM.
The only AGM I know of that allows "conditioning" or an equalization cycle is the Lifeline AGM.

Other makers specifically prohibit it:

Odyssey AGM Batteries:
"It is imperative not to exceed 15.0V as this will cause the pressure valves to open and out-gas hydrogen, oxygen and water from inside the battery. This will shorten the life of the battery and cause premature failure. Some portable chargers exceed 15.0V, especially two-wheel garage chargers, so charging voltages should be verified by measuring the charging voltage during the time when the charging amperage is reducing from full output. The deep cycle charging voltage must be within 14.1V minimum to 14.7V maximum."

Trojan AGM Batteries: (they capitalized NEVER not me)
"Deep-cycle AGM or gel batteries should NEVER be equalized."

Deka/East Penn AGM Batteries: (sold under numerous private labels):
"Charge voltage must be limited (14.4 to 14.6 volts maximum at 68F)"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post

Go and have a look at what battery manufacturers say about battery care.
What ever batteries you have...check with the manufacturer
Its not f...ing fairy tales
Your right not fairy tales but advising owners of AGM batteries to equalize every four weeks is is direct opposition to what the actual manufacturers suggest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post
You need to understand the charging criteria and also the maintenance criteria
Yes you do an most AGM and GEL batteries can not and should not be equalized. If you own Lifeline AGM batteries you can "condition" them but most other brands can not and should not. Advising as such goes against "understanding the charging criteria"..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post
Batteries kept properly charged do not need equalization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post

Batteries on mine since 2006 and working fine.

BS
How do you know? What criteria are you using to make a "global" statement like that ?
Where is your evidence ?
And where was your evidence advising others to equalize their AGM batteries when "quality" manufacturers specifically and very strongly advise against it with the exception of just one?

It is interesting that I have a bank of 12V batteries from Wal*Mart ending their 6 year this November. I have the full documentation on them which can be found here:

5 Year Wal*Mart Battery Observations

As you can read in the experiment, they have never been equalized. They still accept the full current they always have, and that I would expect. They also still exceed CCA and MCA specs on both Argus and Midtronics analyzers and came in at about 94% of the 20 hour Ah capacity rating at my year five test.

I will be doing the full battery of tests again this winter including another 20 hour capacity test. For a $210.00 bank I think I got my money's worth despite not equalizing them but at the rate they are going I expect to get a full 7th year out of them.
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Old 25-09-2012, 09:39   #23
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
The only AGM I know of that allows "conditioning" or an equalization cycle is the Lifeline AGM.

Other makers specifically prohibit it:

Odyssey AGM Batteries:
"It is imperative not to exceed 15.0V as this will cause the pressure valves to open and out-gas hydrogen, oxygen and water from inside the battery. This will shorten the life of the battery and cause premature failure. Some portable chargers exceed 15.0V, especially two-wheel garage chargers, so charging voltages should be verified by measuring the charging voltage during the time when the charging amperage is reducing from full output. The deep cycle charging voltage must be within 14.1V minimum to 14.7V maximum."

Trojan AGM Batteries: (they capitalized NEVER not me)
"Deep-cycle AGM or gel batteries should NEVER be equalized."

Deka/East Penn AGM Batteries: (sold under numerous private labels):
"Charge voltage must be limited (14.4 to 14.6 volts maximum at 68F)"



Your right not fairy tales but advising owners of AGM batteries to equalize every four weeks is is direct opposition to what the actual manufacturers suggest.



Yes you do an most AGM and GEL batteries can not and should not be equalized. If you own Lifeline AGM batteries you can "condition" them but most other brands can not and should not. Advising as such goes against "understanding the charging criteria"..

[I]

And where was your evidence advising others to equalize their AGM batteries when "quality" manufacturers specifically and very strongly advise against it with the exception of just one?

It is interesting that I have a bank of 12V batteries from Wal*Mart ending their 6 year this November. I have the full documentation on them which can be found here:

5 Year Wal*Mart Battery Observations

As you can read in the experiment, they have never been equalized. They still accept the full current they always have, and that I would expect. They also still exceed CCA and MCA specs on both Argus and Midtronics analyzers and came in at about 94% of the 20 hour Ah capacity rating at my year five test.

I will be doing the full battery of tests again this winter including another 20 hour capacity test. For a $210.00 bank I think I got my money's worth despite not equalizing them but at the rate they are going I expect to get a full 7th year out of them.
Woo hoo......settle down man !

What kind of battery bank do you have for $210 ?
At that price why bother testing em...just throw em out every 2 years and buy new ones !

We have 5 lifeline AGMS and two adjustable regulators (engine and solar) that allow us to set precisley the equalisation voltage and time.
So YES we do what the manufacturer recommends.....although why Lifeline would recommend it and other AGM makers don't is a matter for them to answer.

As for the battery bug...$50 gets you the one that monitors A start battery.
They have 2 models for deep cycle banks...one for <150Ah and one for <300Ah...
Unless yr just a weekend cruiser, its no good.

It was made for car starting batteries ...see their website
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Old 25-09-2012, 10:11   #24
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

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Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post
Woo hoo......settle down man !

What kind of battery bank do you have for $210 ?
At that price why bother testing em...just throw em out every 2 years and buy new ones !

We have 5 lifeline AGMS and two adjustable regulators (engine and solar) that allow us to set precisley the equalisation voltage and time.
So YES we do what the manufacturer recommends.....although why Lifeline would recommend it and other AGM makers don't is a matter for them to answer.


As for the battery bug...$50 gets you the one that monitors A start battery.
They have 2 models for deep cycle banks...one for <150Ah and one for <300Ah...
Unless yr just a weekend cruiser, its no good.

It was made for car starting batteries ...see their website
You stated that equalizing AGM batteries every four weeks is good for them. This is potentially dangerous info for folks with expensive AGM brands that can't be equalized, such as Trojan, Deka/East Penn, Odyssey and others.

I just wanted to clarify the information that the "manufacturers" actually provide, as you said we should do, so people don't potentially destroy thousands of dollars in batteries... As I mentioned Lifeline AGM batteries, like your bank, can be condition charged but most others can not.

Lifeline only recommends a "conditioning" charge when the batteries are showing signs of capacity loss. Are you are showing signs of capacity loss every four weeks?
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Old 25-09-2012, 10:16   #25
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

Having had meters on two boats, and cruised those boats, I found that:
*Keeping the batteries full and having a life snorkeling, traveling etc was not a reality.
* Whatever the meter said, I needed to charge one way or another every day.
* It really didnt matter if I used the amphours, voltage or etc... I KNEW I needed to charge.
* Whether the meter said I had 120 amp hours remaining or my batt's were at 12.3 volts really didnt matter.... or change what occurrred next!
* it is fun to read what certain things draw on the ammeter.
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Old 25-09-2012, 11:19   #26
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albro359 View Post
REALLY ???

Go and have a look at what battery manufacturers say about battery care.
What ever batteries you have...check with the manufacturer
Its not f...ing fairy tales
It works !!!

You need to understand the charging criteria and also the maintenance criteria

Batteries kept properly charged do not need equalization.

Batteries on mine since 2006 and working fine.

BS
How do you know? What criteria are you using to make a "global" statement like that ?
Where is your evidence ?
a good battery monitor and regular SOC tests with a hydrometer.


for example Trojan, suggest once or twice a year, and only if there is a low Sg reading.

AGMs in particular suffer from little sulphation, they benefit little from equalisation. IN fact carbon fibre, based AGMs, like Elecsol, will claim that permanent suphalation cannot occur.

In view experience ( and i spent several years in battery charger design), the best way to ensure good batteries, is to charge them back to 100% on a regular basis

dave
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Old 25-09-2012, 15:52   #27
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

A little off topic, but FWIW here is what I do.

Our boat is on a boat yard mooring. She has two 4D lead acid batteries for 400 AH house capacity. We usually are out for two days a weekend. I changed our most often used lights to LEDs, but also repaired the fridge so am at a net loss in terms of usage during a 24 hour period.

Most of my charging comes from the stock Yanmar (Hitachi) alternator. When I am running the engine to charge, I use a clamp on ammeter to occasionally check progress. (I am considering a battery monitor but the wiring hassle because of space for the shunt seems like a lot of work for the luxury, and as one poster noted, with no chance of doing much more than I already am.) On my last charge before leaving the boat for the week, I try to run until the alternator is sending around 5A. I stop at 8 A if I am running short on time. By this point, the engine is going to have to run too long to make much more progress. Once a month or so I try to get into the yard's dock to plug in our on-board battery charger. Unfortunately, I don't usually have enough time on shore power to bring the battery up enough to start an equalization charge which I know she needs. I have recently added a solar panel to hopefully bring up the charge between our trips.

I am considering a Honda EU2000 to occasionally give her a better charge than our trips to the dock. Also depending on how the solar panel does. The trade-off seems to be longer lasting batteries at $550 a set vs. the cost and hassle of the Honda.
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Old 25-09-2012, 16:03   #28
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

hlev00-
I suggest that you carefully read Post #8 in this thread.
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Old 25-09-2012, 16:18   #29
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

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hlev00-
I suggest that you carefully read Post #8 in this thread.
I trust you are directing me to "charge to 100% as often as possible". I know that and realize my current strategy isn't the best, which is probably overstating it. I didn't mean to suggest that others should adopt the same. On a mooring I am limited. This is why I probably won't invest in anything other than lead-acid until I can do better.

Thanks for the advice though.

Harry
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Old 25-09-2012, 16:27   #30
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Re: A note regarding Battery Monitors BMV 6005 Victron

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This is why I probably won't invest in anything other than lead-acid until I can do better.

Thanks for the advice though.

Harry
If you are on a mooring and spend the week there with everything turned off, your best course of action would be one simple 100 watt solar panel and a cheap charge controller. Given a week you'll make very happy batteries!!
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