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Old 12-06-2018, 15:36   #121
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

[QUOTE=OceanPlanet;2644012]You have 2 x 6V batteries in series. When batteries are in series, they cannot balance the voltage between them. Rather, the same current flows in & out of each one no matter what the SOC is of each individual battery.

It sounds like you were only monitoring the PACK voltage, not the voltage of each 6V. I'll bet you that they are out of balance...that is, one is at higher voltage than the other.


I'm lost. Dumb question bear with me please.
A 6v battery is essentially 3x 2v cells in series so how can you treat individual cells anyway?

I have been equalising 2x 12v banks in parallel made up of 2 lots of 2 6v in series, at 15.3v for 4hrs.
How should I do this?
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Old 12-06-2018, 16:04   #122
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If we are at a dock with power, we would tend to be there at least, 15 hours.
15 hrs x 10 amp = 150 x .8 charge efficiency de-rating = 120 amp. This would do 50% of the current battery bank. It would work but 20 amp would be better and would work better with two banks of 225ah. I think it is probably best to get the 20amp

rg, it simply doesn't work that way. That's because of battery acceptance. As the bank gets fuller it can take less amps (at the target voltage).


Like these:


Battery Acceptance by Stu Battery Acceptance

Why Going Into FLOAT is NOT Full

Why Going to Float is NOT Full


I'm also surprised at myself for not suggesting you read this, too:


The Ample Power Primer http://www.amplepower.com/primer/primer.pdf


Maine Sail has also written extensively about battery acceptance. A Google search should turn some up from either his own websites or sbo.com.


You're gettin' there.



PS - My links come from here, which include a lot of links to Maine Sail's material


Electrical Systems 101 Electrical Systems 101
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Old 12-06-2018, 16:42   #123
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

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Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
450AH, 500W solar is only enough for great weather and shallow cycling, I'd want double that and not be greedy.

Unless as you say a genny's available for running an hour or two on cloudy mornings.

OP, you can get by with just a manual PS no automatic charger if you don't mind being the human regulator each cycle.


Its a 32 Boat. I think he can fit 500, but 1KW? I doubt it.
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Old 12-06-2018, 17:02   #124
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



I'm also surprised at myself for not suggesting you read this, too:


The Ample Power Primer http://www.amplepower.com/primer/primer.pdf

I apologize, this link seems not to work. Try going to the ample power website separately.
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Old 12-06-2018, 21:08   #125
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

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Its a 32 Boat. I think he can fit 500, but 1KW? I doubt it.
Just saying, if a 450AH bank isn't greedy, then 1 kW panelage isn't either.

If you can fit it.

Otherwise gotta factor in regular morning dino juice charging, or just watch you don't consume as much as you produce.
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Old 12-06-2018, 21:09   #126
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
I apologize, this link seems not to work. Try going to the ample power website separately.
Works fine from here
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Old 12-06-2018, 22:31   #127
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Its a 32 Boat. I think he can fit 500, but 1KW? I doubt it.
500w is a big ask on a 32ft boat imho, i had one. Its not just the size restrictions but also the additional weight combined with everything else on the stern.

Big banks really show their worth on multiple day passages more so than at anchor. Also big banks offer more redundacy, take two 6v batteries out of your 675ah and you still have 450ah left.
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Old 13-06-2018, 04:09   #128
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

Stu Thank you, I was not thinking! I have a Link10 and I should know that absorption takes hours. Also thank you for the great Electrical Systems 101 (key links)I have a lot of reading and study ahead of me. The Ample Power Primer is on this page (Ample Power is using an out of date certificate, so you might have to accept the certificate, overriding your browser security settings. Also the pdf version is not formatted correctly, use the browser html version)

I think I need a complete plan to work towards, to avoid mistakes.

Current Use
Mooring
10-15 day Cruises 3 - 5 per summer.
Possibly longer trips in future.
Monitering - Link 10

Loads
B&G Zeus Touch 12 with 4G Radar (Radar not used much)
Raymarine ST60 tridata (depth + speed)
Raymarine ST60 wind
Raymarine Autohelm Wheelpilot 4000 (not used much)
Ozifridge Refrigeration w/ Evaporator Tank, Danfoss BD30 (initial drawdown is the single biggest load)
Computers (this can be a good sized load, usually in port)
(?) HAM SSB - have advanced license, but no equipment. Maybe I won't need this (I hope not) as it causes huge power use and lots of expensive equipment. Maybe sat phone is a just a simpler & better option.

Power Sources
(2) Trojan Batteries T-105 in series 225ah
Balmar 65-90 65amp Alternator with ARS-5 Regulator
14 watt Solar Panel
Adjustable 1-30vDC Power Source (used with 120vdc, dock & winter)
Future -Sterling Pro Charge or ProNautica 1230P or 1240P 30a or 40a Charger

I think my existing rudimentary 120vdc system is too old (1981) and needs to be brought up to current standards, at the same time as wiring in the charger and adding the required fuse(s) at the battery. I am going to fully diagram the existing system first. Then determine the appropriate changes.

I believe the charger must go into the port locker above the battery container on the hull under the deck) because the other locations in the cabin are too far away (10') or are too prominent in the cabin and going to be a pain when opening the refrigerator. This locker has a 3" vent at the stern and has plywood panels separating the engine. It is certainly not an optimal location.

The other thing I think I should do is expand solar capacity to improve recovery of the batteries. That might be the single biggest improvement to battery life.

Maybe going to a bigger bank is not so good an idea because my 65 amp alternator will also have to be changed, and full recovery of the batteries through absorption will take even longer, and I don't think I can get much more than 100 watts on the boat. I should just work on using less electricity and plan on earlier replacement of batteries. I know they are not getting a full charge (down to 2% of capacity) while we are cruising, however we turn on the engine when we've used 50 amps generally. Maybe I really should go back to gel or agm?

Thank you all, for all the great advice and information, it is certainly welcome to this pilgrim.
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Old 13-06-2018, 05:34   #129
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

Stu, Is this the appropriate wiring diagram to use?
Alternator/Batteries & "The Basic" 1-2-B Switch BEST Wiring Diagrams

Yes, I guess so, as you have the link in your list.

I guess your post #23 (2006) is the full answer
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4....html#msg27335
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Old 13-06-2018, 07:19   #130
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Stu, Is this the appropriate wiring diagram to use?
Alternator/Batteries & "The Basic" 1-2-B Switch BEST Wiring Diagrams

Yes, I guess so, as you have the link in your list.

I guess your post #23 (2006) is the full answer
Stu's Wiring Diagram & The 1-2-B & Dual Circuit Switches

rg, yes. But read the text that goes along with them, too, which explains the options. The KEY is getting the AO off the C post of the switch.


The first one has the "simplified" overall system one.



The second link is my wiring diagram which agrees with the 1-2-B thread, only difference is I split the negative going back to ground [engine] by continuing to use the OEM smaller wire and just added a new one. Been working fine for over a decade.
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Old 14-06-2018, 05:02   #131
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

Stu, very good ESP. I was wondering if I should take the black neg (-) from Balmar Regulator (ARS5) to Alternator (-) off the alternator and tie it back, as I have done with the Red (+).

So I guess I can just complete the black #12 from battery (-) to ARS5 Reg.
Thanks.

Will check the Red #1 from Alternator to switch C post, and move it to #1 House Bank. Mechanic wired in the new Yanmar 3YM30 in 2013 and I believe the red goes to the Starter then to the batteries. Should that be changed to be direct?

Quote:
The second link is my wiring diagram which agrees with the 1-2-B thread, only difference is I split the negative going back to ground [engine] by continuing to use the OEM smaller wire and just added a new one. Been working fine for over a decade.
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Old 17-06-2018, 04:36   #132
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

Following Stu's Electrical Systems 101 and Mainsail's
Regulator Volt-Sense To Battery = Correct Wiring Schematic Diagram

1. Remove Balmar ACS-5 Red+ at Alt and run direct to Bank #1 House +
2. Remove Balmar ACS-5 Blk+ at Alt and run direct to Bank #1 House +
3. If the AO (Alt power output red) goes to the Starter then to the batteries, I should run it directly from AO to Bank #1 House + with a fuse. The starter, being a load should then go to the common post on 1-2-Both with the DC Panel.
4. Now the Alternator will be charging Bank #1 and the Regulator will be sensing voltage directly at Bank #1.
5. To protect the "Reserve battery" wire an ACR Relay (no regulation, power goes both ways) provided the battery chemistry is close enough. To protect the mechanic, provide a disconnect switch on the AO inside the engine compartment.
6. Normal Use: Start the Engine using Bank #1 unless there is an emergency.
7. Emergency Use: With a dead Bank #1 House battery, start the engine on Bank #2 not "Both".
8. Because of dead Bank #1, the Regulator/Alt may not have any field current, and the alternator may not charge. Because Bank #2 Battery is at rest (12.8v) the ACR Relay will probably not activate. Therefore some + field current from the start battery may be needed, either via a separate wire to get the alternator working, or possibly by setting the 1-2-Both to "Both" [I don't know if this is a good idea as both batteries could die.]. If the Alt does get have enough field current, the alternator may start charging and become quickly overloaded due to the dead battery bank. I believe this is where the "Small Engine Switch" might be useful.

I would be interested in what others have to say about this.
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Old 17-06-2018, 16:18   #133
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

Just parallel the banks when charging.

Get a VSR robust enough to momentary-switch self-jump from Reserve when needed.

You should be monitoring your banks well enough to replace them long before either is close to catastrophic failure.

Just disconnect either if you suspect that's coming.
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Old 17-06-2018, 17:03   #134
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Re: 6vdc Trojan T105 (225ah) Equalization

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Will check the Red #1 from Alternator to switch C post, and move it to #1 House Bank. Mechanic wired in the new Yanmar 3YM30 in 2013 and I believe the red goes to the Starter then to the batteries. Should that be changed to be direct?

As part of the Elec 101, there's this:


OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History Alternator/Batteries & "The Basic" 1-2-B Switch BEST Wiring Diagrams


Maine Sail also discussed it here:


Bypass The Orange/Red Circuit - Maine Sail's version of the wiring harness crap, but includes a good discussion of the wires at the back of the old OEM alternators
Universal Diesel Wiring Harness Upgrade Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com


************************************************** *****



rg - Once you understand how the electrons flow you will be able to answer those questions beyond the "what wire goes where?" with a resounding "I now know WHY!!!"
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Old 18-06-2018, 10:09   #135
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Balmar ARS-5 Programming for Trojan T-105 Batteries

From the Trojan Manuals:



Quote:
Preparation:
Look up your battery manufacturer's specs for charging and equalizing.
Trojan T-105
Voltage 6V 12V 24V 36V 48V
Daily 7.4 14.8 29.6 44.5 59.3
Float 6.7 13.5 27.0 40.5 54.0
Equalize8.1 16.2 32.4 48.6 64.8
Charging voltage compensation for temperatures above/below 80F (26.6C).
- Add .028 volt/cell for every 10 below 80 F (26.6C)
- Subtract 0.028 volt/cell for every 10 F above 80 F (26.6 C)).

Trojan recommends equalizing only when batteries have low specific gravity, below 1.250 or wide ranging specific gravity, 0.030, after fully charging a battery. The charge applied is 2.5 volts per cell (nominal, adjust for temperature). Measure the specific gravity in each cell every hour. Discontinue the equalization charge when the gravity no longer rises and when cell measurements have equalized.

Trojan T105 State of Charge to Specific Gravity
% SG 6V
100 1.277 6.37
90 1.258 6.31
80 1.238 6.25
70 1.217 6.19
60 1.195 6.12
50 1.172 6.02
40 1.148 5.98
30 1.124 5.91
20 1.098 5.83
10 1.073 5.75
Using the Balmar ARS-5 Manual and reviewing Compass Marine How to's these are the settings proposed:


https://marinehowto.com/programming-...age-regulator/
Trojan T-105 6vdc Flooded Deepcycle Lead Batteries bA=Fdc
Base Battery Type bA=Fdc
Belt Load Manager bEl= 0
Display Mode dSP = Sd
Alternator Failure Advisory bDL= OFF
Regulator Field Start dLc= 1 sec
Soft Ramp (secs) ?? = 60 sec
High Volt Alarm AHL= 15.6v
Compensation Limit CL= 14.8v
Bulk Volts Limit bV= 14.6v (14.8v Trojan)
Bulk Time/Duration b1c= 18 min
Absorption Volts Av= 14.4v (14.7v Trojan)
Absorption Time Min A1c=18 min (5 hours)
Float Volts Limit Fv= 13.4v (13.5v Trojan)
Float Time min F1c= 18 minutes (12hrs max?)
Low Volt Limit ALL= 12.7v
Field Threshold Bulk & Absorption FBA= 65%
Field Threshold Field to Absorption FLL= 65%
Max Alternator Temp AL1= 125f/108c (110c Mainesail)
Max Battery Temp b1L= 226f/52c (148c Mainsail)
Batt temp Compensation Slope SLP= ? (5?? Mainesail)


Is the Battery temp compensation slope right for Flooded Deep Cycle Lead?
I am assuming the Max Batt and Alt temps from Mainesail are ok.
For Trojan Bulk (bV), Absorption (Av) and Float (Fv) I used Trojan specs, should they be higher?
It seems to me that Mainesail advised to use something higher for Bulk...?
I don't find a program spot for Float Time Max as in a part of Balmar specs?
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