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Old 15-12-2015, 03:22   #31
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

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Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
I can't remember... some 1month ago...


Unless you are a motorsailer pottering for hours, your alternator of 60A would take hours to charge a big bank. Mostly so with AGM, absorbing up to 1/3 of capacity nominal value approx (100Ah .... 30A charging)

Less so on FLA batteries, but still at least a 15/20% approx.

Your solar is just good for floating topped up bank (10A)

These are rule of thumbs, please verify my numbers/% further :-)
I think I know what you are remembering posted here, but it is a slightly different issue that I am concerned with.

What I think you are quoting is exactly why it is GOOD to use solar and wind to charge the battery bank, otherwise you end up running the engine all the time, because by the end of the charge cycle you are only getting a few amps into the bank as they asymptotically approach fully charged. You end up with a 100HP diesel providing 2 amps for a few hours. Not good for the engine or your peace and quiet.

FWIW, there is a theoretical 20+ amps from the solar (albeit for a short part of the day) and a VERY theoretical 30 amps from the Aerogen 6. Also, really the only thing that should vary here is the depth of discharge, which as many have pointed out, is better if it is less.

No, I think I have been seeing the 10% figure quoted and I have been misinterpreting its relevance. I have been thinking in terms of needing a high enough current to somehow keep the batteries healthy, when really what is being said is that you need the 10% number to be able recharge the bank in a timely manner.

At least... I think that is what I think...

Sometimes I do over-think things. I have plenty of space, and the weight will be in a very good place, so I reckon I will risk it and toss in the 6 x T105s and see what happens.

Fingers crossed.
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Old 15-12-2015, 15:28   #32
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

Matt.
NOTHING has the (grunt) ability to actually charge batteries other than a dedicated charger running off an A.C. supply.
Alternators, Solar, Wind, etc will do as much as they are able to meet your instant demands, but they are really only 'top-ups' preventing, to the extent of their capacities, SOC reduction.
Get a charger and you'll probably recover the batteries you presently have and what's more get a 60 (or even two of them, only hurts pocket initially but saves on genny fuel and ear drum stress) and you'll have plenty of charge capacity for your intended extra capacity.
THEN, your batteries will last for years and y....
IMHO
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Old 15-12-2015, 15:46   #33
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

I ended up with two, a 60 and a 125 amp charger, with both in bulk that is about all my 30 amp AC electrical system can handle, so take AC capacity into account when you start planning big chargers. I plan on running both until absorption and current drops enough for me to make water, then hope that Solar can top it off after that.

From just a sample of one, it seems that you don't get full rated power out of an alternator either. My 140 amp alt initially started at 110 amps, but pretty quickly cut back to 90. I assume this was due to heat build up, but I've only checked it once. I'd be interested to hear from people who have ammeters that monitor their Alt output, what they are getting. I don't think ammeters on alternators are that common, but I can't be the only one.


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Old 15-12-2015, 16:14   #34
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
...............
From just a sample of one, it seems that you don't get full rated power out of an alternator either. My 140 amp alt initially started at 110 amps, but pretty quickly cut back to 90. I assume this was due to heat build up, but I've only checked it once. I'd be interested to hear from people who have ammeters that monitor their Alt output, what they are getting. I don't think ammeters on alternators are that common, but I can't be the only one.
I have ammeters on each bit of charging kit - shore power/Honda, wind/water, solar, and engine alt.... lets me see the efficiency of everything and lets me know when something stops working.

So to give us a sample of two.... my 80 amp battery sensed Bosch will , after a night at anchor doing all the usual stuff including running the fridge, output 60 amps, after about 5 minutes or so ( never really timed it) it will drop back to 40 and some time after that will go to between 5 and 10ish. .... essentialy just covering the load plus a bit to keep the voltage up (13.8?).

Often when I'm out and about the engine will then run for maybe 8 hours.
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Old 15-12-2015, 16:35   #35
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

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Originally Posted by brianlara 3 View Post
Matt.
NOTHING has the (grunt) ability to actually charge batteries other than a dedicated charger running off an A.C. supply.
Alternators, Solar, Wind, etc will do as much as they are able to meet your instant demands, but they are really only 'top-ups' preventing, to the extent of their capacities, SOC reduction.
Get a charger and you'll probably recover the batteries you presently have and what's more get a 60 (or even two of them, only hurts pocket initially but saves on genny fuel and ear drum stress) and you'll have plenty of charge capacity for your intended extra capacity.
THEN, your batteries will last for years and y....
IMHO
Well this is certainly an interesting theory, but how do I reconcile this with the fact that the original owner's battery bank lasted for years without a generator, just the existing wind generator and a significantly smaller solar array?

Surely there are plenty of cruisers getting around without generators? At least, that was the impression I got.

Matt
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Old 15-12-2015, 16:38   #36
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

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I have ammeters on each bit of charging kit - shore power/Honda, wind/water, solar, and engine alt.... lets me see the efficiency of everything and lets me know when something stops working.
Shunts, shunts and more shunts. I love 'em! Got them on everything, with fine gauge wires back to the main electrical panel. Of course I get slightly confused about which ammeter is which, but labels are on the list of things to add next.
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Old 15-12-2015, 16:46   #37
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

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Surely there are plenty of cruisers getting around without generators? At least, that was the impression I got.
Yep, there is at least one who has not had a charger in use except for very rare marina stays. No generator on board, solar/wind do the grunt work, occasional use of engine alternator when the sun and wind fail to provide enough.

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Old 15-12-2015, 17:04   #38
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

Being alone, not wanting to go ashore for food
, having severe war neurosis....I need my TV and freezer. Additional, I don't steer (4amps) this boat, my job is sucking up being on the water, looking for peace.
Yep, seriously strange, need my generator &150 Litres fuel.
And for the speculators, no, I'm not a nasty hermit, love people, supermarkets, shopping centres.
Now the crunch: Seinfeld et al addict. No grog or other, never did.
Generators rule.
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Old 15-12-2015, 17:05   #39
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

Forgot....Dr Phil. !!!!
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Old 15-12-2015, 17:07   #40
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

I have a little Honda and used to have a Kipor ( piece of rubbish ). However the only time it gets used is if I am holed up somewhere with no wind or sun for a few days. Stick it down the back and run a tankful through it in the evening while watching movies, running Espaker etc.

My shore charger is an old ferro-resonant beast and I am typically off the grid for 6 months of the year (not the last year ) so hardly a state of the art battery care regime.

I fitted new Trojans in Hobart early 2001, replaced in about 2007 and again in mid 2013. A single duff cell in one batt on each occasion. I can live with that as they have a pretty hard life.

As stated before, although wired up as house and engine I always use and charge as a single bank which I think helps.
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Old 15-12-2015, 17:17   #41
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

Single bank!
My Kipor was rubbish!
Economic necessity= 1600W...wait...Ryobi for a year now runs the Sterling 12/60 with 600W to spare, never missed a beat.
Need wind gen.
The Waeco drinks way too much. Engel next time.
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Old 15-12-2015, 17:21   #42
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

I believe a lot of us actually get by with what are considered dead banks. I know mine was well past official dead before it got buried.
But I popped so much money into this AGM bank I'm determined to make it last til LIFE-PO is mainstream


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Old 15-12-2015, 17:33   #43
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

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Surely there are plenty of cruisers getting around without generators? At least, that was the impression I got.

I don't have a generator but I do have 1250 watts of solar with MPPT controllers. I've pulled 450 AHrs in one day while running the watermaker. I've measured a peak of 110 amps. Most of the time I'm into float by noon. I have approximately 1000 AHrs of Odyssey batteries.
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Old 15-12-2015, 17:53   #44
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

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Quote:
Surely there are plenty of cruisers getting around without generators? At least, that was the impression I got.

I don't have a generator but I do have 1250 watts of solar with MPPT controllers. I've pulled 450 AHrs in one day while running the watermaker. I've measured a peak of 110 amps. Most of the time I'm into float by noon. I have approximately 1000 AHrs of Odyssey batteries.
The real-estate available to fit solar on cats is one of (many) appeals of a cat. If was sailing a cat I would do exactly as you have done.

I bought the larger controller on the offchance I needed a bit more solar, but if I add more it will be in less than ideal locations. As it is, I cannot imagine fitting more than 400 watts without seriously compromising the sail-ability of the boat.

Matt
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Old 15-12-2015, 17:55   #45
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Re: 450 AH vs 675AH charging question

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Yep, there is at least one who has not had a charger in use except for very rare marina stays. No generator on board, solar/wind do the grunt work, occasional use of engine alternator when the sun and wind fail to provide enough.

Jim
Yeah, but I bet those guys are life long members of BAA. (Battery abusers anonymous).
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