24 vdc Help for HUGE Anchor Windlass - Page 3

cat man do · 09-11-2009, 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by skipmac

Hi Cat Man Do,

One comment about your question that the specs of the Maxwell do not compare with the specs of the Aquarius. Specs on a piece of paper do not necessarily reflect actual performance in the real world. I would listen more to the comments of people that used the real units in the real world.

How do we know though?

Has anyone commenting used the other winch?

It would be like me saying my car is the best there is because I use it and its the best.
To me it is, but only because I haven't driven other cars.

We had a similar situation with Anchors here when Sarca, Manson and Rocna first came on the scene.
Everyone's anchor, (cqr, delta, plough, claw) was apparently better, until they weren't.

Now I'm not saying that these winches ARE better, what I am saying if their hasn't been a direct comparison, its a bit hard to say that brand X is better than brand H without actual comparison dont you think?

cat man do · 09-11-2009, 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

Here is a workable solution: Side-Power bow & stern thrusters - Serial-Parallel Switchbox

This box contains contactors that electrically manipulate battery connections so that a battery is taken out of the parallel configuration in a bank and places it in series with the other batteries in the bank when 24 VDC is required. I installed one for a 24 VDC bow thruster and it works well.

Pricey, but solves the high demand 24 VDC on a 12 VDC vessel problem.

Charlie

Thanks Charlie

skipmac · 09-11-2009, 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by cat man do

How do we know though?

Has anyone commenting used the other winch?

It would be like me saying my car is the best there is because I use it and its the best.
To me it is, but only because I haven't driven other cars.

We had a similar situation with Anchors here when Sarca, Manson and Rocna first came on the scene.
Everyone's anchor, (cqr, delta, plough, claw) was apparently better, until they weren't.

Now I'm not saying that these winches ARE better, what I am saying if their hasn't been a direct comparison, its a bit hard to say that brand X is better than brand H without actual comparison dont you think?

Yes, exactly. Unless there is a side by side functional comparison AND long term reliability comparison there is no way to be sure which is better.

At the same time, you can't decide based on published specs. Specs, power ratings, etc for most anything can be manipulated based on how the tests are run, if it is a peak or continuous rating, test conditions, even the honesty of the tester. That's why, lacking independent test results I think the best option is basing decisions on other's real world results.

**FrankZ** · 09-11-2009, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

Here is a workable solution: Side-Power bow & stern thrusters - Serial-Parallel Switchbox

This box contains contactors that electrically manipulate battery connections so that a battery is taken out of the parallel configuration in a bank and places it in series with the other batteries in the bank when 24 VDC is required. I installed one for a 24 VDC bow thruster and it works well.

Pricey, but solves the high demand 24 VDC on a 12 VDC vessel problem.

Charlie

At a list price of $1380 I should hope it does the job.

It mentions on demand for thrusters. Is the switch box controlled by the Side Power thruster or is it just simple and allows for the 24V when the load (thruster or otherwise) is switched on?

Stillraining · 09-11-2009, 22:35

A fancy relay sounds like..but it is light..

**James S** · 09-11-2009, 22:37

I have the one Charlie installed.
Its basically a selection of contactors that are activated by the thruster control.
May be possible to assemble your own...however without fail safes built in to it ,,,the failure of a single contactor (when the others don’t fail) could cause a direct short.

s/v Jedi · 09-11-2009, 22:49

Yes, I didn't read Charlie's link but just from the title that's the only way of doing it. Expensive, complicated and another maintenance item. If you can avoid this, you should! (with a bow thruster there's no choice, you need 24V or hydraulic for a big boat).

Cat: My 3500 states that a 3/0 cable is enough for a 50' distance between batteries and windlass. That ain't so bad... It costs $$$ though of you need to buy 80' of that stuff, but you require a much shorter length.

chain: I think a length of 3/8" is 400' (a barrel).

Aquarius: it's 316 steel, on the foredeck... it will stain. Anderssen winches are the best, wish I had those, but these guys are making them for 50 years now, polish them like you've never seen stuff polished, and they don't live on the fore deck.
I know how you think but believe me, it's much better to spend more $$$ on a windlass that has less pull when you get a pure and proven quality product. You take the opposite approach: as long as no-one proves the windlass ain't good, it must be good. You know that's not true... the lack of owners should be enough indication. I might well change my opinion on the Aquarius... when I meet enough cruisers that have had them for years without trouble.

So, I would go for the Maxwell VWC 2200 with either 3/8" G4 or 5/16" G7 chain. The G7 chain uses the same chainwheel as G4 and allows you to take much more chain while the volume and weight is the same... at a price. Sundeer 56's have 5/16" G7.

These units are all for chain only. When you have a chain stopper (again, Maxwell makes the best, just measure the pin!!), you can attach a line for incidental use (like emergency) but that line won't come out of the chain-pipe because of the thimble. I would suggest to get 200' of chain and splice a 200' length of cheap 3/8" polypropylene line to that as a drainage/cushion in the chain locker and a marker (it floats) when you need to abandon anchor in an emergency.
You can buy very strong chain connectors that will fit the chain pipe. I am about to test them. They are 6,600 lbs rated for 3/8" and I think I can splice a line to them.

cheers,
Nick.

GMac · 09-11-2009, 22:53

Cat, as someone who spends 10+ hours a day working on anchoring systems and does test work on a few brands I must make a couple more comments, as I do.

The big Anchorlift will do the job for you easily and it is overkill. The exact same applies to the Maxwell 3500. I would go a size down personally.

I can assure you the 3500 Maxwell will pull no less than that big anchor lift, probably more. Anchorlift published numbers are not to bad, in comparison with most but the Maxwell ones are understated, something NONE of the others can say. As a FYI - Maxwell is looking at using maximums rather than the current minimums due to them finding themselves at the wrong end of comparisons exactly like you have done. What you have done is very very common so your far from alone.

Working on price is good but when you are in the middle of nowhere with all your gear deployed you will find price gives way to reliability. Maxwell have a great track record there and have been in the game a long time. Anchorlift is newer and hasn't had any where the time in the field Maxwell has. I'm definitely not saying AL are unreliable as everything I've seen to date has them going good. Just saying Maxwell is a lot more proven than AL. And for that matter Maxwell also has a far superior service and parts availability worldwide.

But both are bigger than you need.

What's this max length 43mts of chain thing? Max length of a decent made 10mm / 3/8" would be more 2000mts if you wanted. 43mts sounds very much like you are planning on buying asian made chain from BLA. Buy good Aussie made, you won't regret it. Damn saying nice things about Aussies again, I must stop that

43mts of 10mm on a 50fter is short and will severely limit your options. Maybge not short term but if you get a case of the Walk-abouts you will want more length.

What about, just as a suggestion, you look at a Maxwell RC10. Great newish performer and proving very popular. Will run lots of 10mm chain with ease yet also do rope equally as good. Have the best of both worlds theory yet without taking up a huge amount of deck space. Another option would be a 2500 Storm from Muir. All SS and Rope and chain capable. Both are newish some have a few nice trick goodies which the AL and 3500's don't. I'd fit either of those to your boat if it was mine. Just a thought.

Don't ask me about wiring though... well not unless you have a nice pile of fire extinguishers handy. Not one of my stronger suits for sure

And as much as I and Jedi disagree strongly on some things I am in agreement with him on this subject. I suppose it had to happen sooner or later

cat man do · 09-11-2009, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMac

What's this max length 43mts of chain thing? Max length of a decent made 10mm / 3/8" would be more 2000mts if you wanted. 43mts sounds very much like you are planning on buying asian made chain from BLA. Buy good Aussie made, you won't regret it. Damn saying nice things about Aussies again, I must stop that

43mts of 10mm on a 50fter is short and will severely limit your options. Maybge not short term but if you get a case of the Walk-abouts you will want more length.

Chain length from here and not where I would buy it, but it was easy reference.

Product View - .: Glascraft Marine Queensland Online :.

Serafini chains no good?

Serafini Chains

I have only ever had anything to do with light boats , fast racer cruiser type multi's so anything more than this would seem just outrageously heavy.

I have also done a fair amount of cruising over the years, compared to some, certainly not compared to others, and am yet to anchor any deeper than about 20 feet, except in Shoalwater bay area with 30 foot tides so around 40 feet there, so more chain than was needed for 5:1 seemed excessive as rope would take care of the rest I figured.

Back to looking at the Maxwell's it seems.

Thanks

GMac · 10-11-2009, 00:07

PWB and Serifini are good. The 43mt reference was due to 2 players over there doing piles of asian made chains in 100kg drums, or 43mts if a 10mm.

I'm sure that once you get your beast wet to urge to wonder will grow. So starting with a shorter length is fine but I think you would want to leave room for later expansion, future proofing one could say.

Don't want to talk you out of or into anything just more a bit of the devils advocate really. Having build a few boats I know how busy the mind can get with so many details running around in it, sometimes to the point of being a little to focused in one direction at the expense of other viable options.

Back to the rode, 30-40mts then to rope would be a good place to start I would think. Leave you on all chain overnite by the sounds of your planned cruising areas but with length to stop deeper for a fish or whatever if you wanted. Not too heavy and not to costly, that can't be a bad thing.

cat man do · 10-11-2009, 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boracay

Have you considered an Arco Hutton windlass?

Thanks and had looked at them before and will again

This appealed to me
HUTTON-ARCO Yacht Winches

Quote:

WARRANTY

The AUSTRALIAN YACHT WINCH PTY. LTD. guarantees its products and each piece of equipment to be free from defects in materials and workmanship for an unlimited period of time. Any part that proves to be defective in the normal use of HUTTON and HUTTON-ORCA products will be replaced without charge.
The above Warranty is subject to the following limitations:

This warranty does not apply to damage resulting from accident, neglect or misuse, including alterations made by unauthorized personnel.
This Warranty is limited to a period of one (1) year from date of purchase, for the following parts:
1. Aluminium Winch Drums, Furler Extrusions and other Aluminium Components.
2. Reduction Gearboxes manufactured by companies other then the AUSTRALIAN YACHT WINCH P/L, such as installed in Power Winches and Anchor Windlasses
3. Electric and Hydraulic motors

The AUSTRALIAN YACHT WINCH P/L shall not be liable for consequential damage to yachts, equipment or persons due to any failure of HUTTON or HUTTON-ORCA equipment.
Some countries do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damage, therefore the above exclusion or limitation may not apply to you.

Though I doubt anyone has reall issue with the metal bits on winches, it'll always be burnout or gearbox failure which of course, arent covered.

I cant find anything about motor or gearbox with maxwell
http://www.maxwellmarine.com/support_warranty.php

Joli · 10-11-2009, 03:50

I can't answer who builds the motors for Maxwell but I can say the gearing and shafts are stainless. Last time I broke down the gearbox for maintanence the wear on the gears was minimal. Heavy duty stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cat man do

I cant find anything about motor or gearbox with maxwell
Complete Your Warranty Form Online

Blue Stocking · 10-11-2009, 04:16

Untitled Page

Try this site

GMac · 10-11-2009, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joli

I can't answer who builds the motors for Maxwell but I can say the gearing and shafts are stainless. Last time I broke down the gearbox for maintanence the wear on the gears was minimal. Heavy duty stuff.

CHIMA, an Italian specialised small motor manufacturer. They make a range specifically for anchor winches. Most of the top end winch guys use motors from them.

Marinheiro · 10-11-2009, 15:10

from my experience with approx 8m cable run (ie 16m return) to my Nilsson 3000, 12V is no problem. On paper 24V is technically better but just another level of complication. Another option for windlass suppliers is the new Nilsson series. If you can find a 3000 series second hand these are a great windlass, absolutely bullet proof.

09-11-2009, 22:35	#35
Stillraining Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Puget Sound Boat: Irwin 41 CC Ketch Posts: 1,829	A fancy relay sounds like..but it is light.. __________________ "Go simple, go large!". Relationships are everything to me...everything else in life is just a tool to enhance them.

09-11-2009, 22:37	#36
James S Moderator Moderator Join Date: May 2008 Location: I live in Yemen...the boats in Lebenon Boat: 1978 CT48 Arctic Lady Posts: 1,936 Images: 125	I have the one Charlie installed. Its basically a selection of contactors that are activated by the thruster control. May be possible to assemble your own...however without fail safes built in to it ,,,the failure of a single contactor (when the others don’t fail) could cause a direct short. __________________ James S/V Arctic Lady (Few things should be taken more seriously than pleasure)

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09-11-2009, 22:49	#37
s/v Jedi Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Boat: Sundeer 64 - Jedi Posts: 2,147	Yes, I didn't read Charlie's link but just from the title that's the only way of doing it. Expensive, complicated and another maintenance item. If you can avoid this, you should! (with a bow thruster there's no choice, you need 24V or hydraulic for a big boat). Cat: My 3500 states that a 3/0 cable is enough for a 50' distance between batteries and windlass. That ain't so bad... It costs $$$ though of you need to buy 80' of that stuff, but you require a much shorter length. chain: I think a length of 3/8" is 400' (a barrel). Aquarius: it's 316 steel, on the foredeck... it will stain. Anderssen winches are the best, wish I had those, but these guys are making them for 50 years now, polish them like you've never seen stuff polished, and they don't live on the fore deck. I know how you think but believe me, it's much better to spend more $$$ on a windlass that has less pull when you get a pure and proven quality product. You take the opposite approach: as long as no-one proves the windlass ain't good, it must be good. You know that's not true... the lack of owners should be enough indication. I might well change my opinion on the Aquarius... when I meet enough cruisers that have had them for years without trouble. So, I would go for the Maxwell VWC 2200 with either 3/8" G4 or 5/16" G7 chain. The G7 chain uses the same chainwheel as G4 and allows you to take much more chain while the volume and weight is the same... at a price. Sundeer 56's have 5/16" G7. These units are all for chain only. When you have a chain stopper (again, Maxwell makes the best, just measure the pin!!), you can attach a line for incidental use (like emergency) but that line won't come out of the chain-pipe because of the thimble. I would suggest to get 200' of chain and splice a 200' length of cheap 3/8" polypropylene line to that as a drainage/cushion in the chain locker and a marker (it floats) when you need to abandon anchor in an emergency. You can buy very strong chain connectors that will fit the chain pipe. I am about to test them. They are 6,600 lbs rated for 3/8" and I think I can splice a line to them. cheers, Nick.

09-11-2009, 22:53	#38
GMac Senior Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: North of the Bridge, thankfully Boat: R930 Posts: 1,503	Cat, as someone who spends 10+ hours a day working on anchoring systems and does test work on a few brands I must make a couple more comments, as I do. The big Anchorlift will do the job for you easily and it is overkill. The exact same applies to the Maxwell 3500. I would go a size down personally. I can assure you the 3500 Maxwell will pull no less than that big anchor lift, probably more. Anchorlift published numbers are not to bad, in comparison with most but the Maxwell ones are understated, something NONE of the others can say. As a FYI - Maxwell is looking at using maximums rather than the current minimums due to them finding themselves at the wrong end of comparisons exactly like you have done. What you have done is very very common so your far from alone. Working on price is good but when you are in the middle of nowhere with all your gear deployed you will find price gives way to reliability. Maxwell have a great track record there and have been in the game a long time. Anchorlift is newer and hasn't had any where the time in the field Maxwell has. I'm definitely not saying AL are unreliable as everything I've seen to date has them going good. Just saying Maxwell is a lot more proven than AL. And for that matter Maxwell also has a far superior service and parts availability worldwide. But both are bigger than you need. What's this max length 43mts of chain thing? Max length of a decent made 10mm / 3/8" would be more 2000mts if you wanted. 43mts sounds very much like you are planning on buying asian made chain from BLA. Buy good Aussie made, you won't regret it. Damn saying nice things about Aussies again, I must stop that 43mts of 10mm on a 50fter is short and will severely limit your options. Maybge not short term but if you get a case of the Walk-abouts you will want more length. What about, just as a suggestion, you look at a Maxwell RC10. Great newish performer and proving very popular. Will run lots of 10mm chain with ease yet also do rope equally as good. Have the best of both worlds theory yet without taking up a huge amount of deck space. Another option would be a 2500 Storm from Muir. All SS and Rope and chain capable. Both are newish some have a few nice trick goodies which the AL and 3500's don't. I'd fit either of those to your boat if it was mine. Just a thought. Don't ask me about wiring though... well not unless you have a nice pile of fire extinguishers handy. Not one of my stronger suits for sure And as much as I and Jedi disagree strongly on some things I am in agreement with him on this subject. I suppose it had to happen sooner or later

10-11-2009, 00:07	#40
GMac Senior Cruiser Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: North of the Bridge, thankfully Boat: R930 Posts: 1,503	PWB and Serifini are good. The 43mt reference was due to 2 players over there doing piles of asian made chains in 100kg drums, or 43mts if a 10mm. I'm sure that once you get your beast wet to urge to wonder will grow. So starting with a shorter length is fine but I think you would want to leave room for later expansion, future proofing one could say. Don't want to talk you out of or into anything just more a bit of the devils advocate really. Having build a few boats I know how busy the mind can get with so many details running around in it, sometimes to the point of being a little to focused in one direction at the expense of other viable options. Back to the rode, 30-40mts then to rope would be a good place to start I would think. Leave you on all chain overnite by the sounds of your planned cruising areas but with length to stop deeper for a fish or whatever if you wanted. Not too heavy and not to costly, that can't be a bad thing.

10-11-2009, 04:16	#43
Blue Stocking Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Boat: Rhodes Reliant 41ft Blue Stocking Posts: 403	Untitled Page Try this site

10-11-2009, 15:10	#45
Marinheiro Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Belo Horizonte, Brazil Boat: Farr 46 Posts: 56	from my experience with approx 8m cable run (ie 16m return) to my Nilsson 3000, 12V is no problem. On paper 24V is technically better but just another level of complication. Another option for windlass suppliers is the new Nilsson series. If you can find a 3000 series second hand these are a great windlass, absolutely bullet proof.